Classical Music : Did John Williams steal half his career from a few measures by Poulenc?

Did John Williams steal half his career from a few measures by Poulenc?

The last minute or so of the first movement of the concerto for two pianos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V87wGyfUQiQ&t=6m38s

You decide.

By the way, for the exactly two people besides me who both (1) might ever read this and (2) have seen The Vision of Escaflowne - if you're reading this, Vox Victoriae, I'm sorry, I know I still owe you a reply re: Stravinsky! - does this sound familiar?

The new theme that appears just over 1 minute into the second movement: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V87wGyfUQiQ&t=8m57s

Hmmm? Maybe? Or if not, then maybe with a hiiiiiint?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsaRVrR8Qp8

Damn, that woman gets around.

Of course, for all I know, you both knew about that one years ago and I'm just behind as always.


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Re: Did John Williams steal half his career from a few measures by Poule

Hmm, no I don't think so. There are some rich & wallowy harmonies in there but I couldn't hear much else that reminded me of his scores.

Some people seem to go bananas over the fact that, eg, the 2nd subject of his Superman opening titles music sounds almost identical to the 'verklarung' theme of Strauss' tone poem - & it does - but W's gifts are in the actual scoring...the split-second cues & rapid changes of feel, tempo, colour via leitmotif etc that Spielberg has always demanded of him. No-one does that better than he. Jaws, Star Wars, Close Encounters, Raiders, ET; all masterpieces of film-scoring, & none of those films would have been as successful as it was without it.

Re: Did John Williams steal half his career from a few measures by Poule

Nice catch! Thank you. If I had watched it recently, I would probably have recalled it after listening to Poulenc’s concerto, but I doubt I would be able to identify the concerto from the soundtrack merely from memory. I might have been able to notice that it sounded somewhat like Poulenc, but I’m not sufficiently familiar with his works to recognize specific passages in other media. Incidentally, which would you consider his best pieces? I would like to explore his work in greater depth in the future.

Regarding John Williams, you may be right. Since he also steals profusely from other composers, however, most of all from late Romanticism, especially from Tchaikovsky and Wagner, I’m not sure exactly from whom he steals the most. My guess would be that he tries to sound like Poulenc when he wants to incite amenable feelings in the audience, while, when he wants to be more dramatic or bombastic, he most usually tries to evoke Tchaikovsky, Wagner, Strauss or Mahler, among others. About your response on Stravinsky, don’t worry! You can reply whenever you have the time and feel disposed to.

Re: Did John Williams steal half his career from a few measures by Poule

By the way, now I realize that my earlier comments on my inability to respond may have generated some pressure. I apologize, that was not my intention. It’s just that I’m terribly busy with cram school during this term, and, since I’m new here, I was afraid that my lack of regularity might bother other members. As for the size of my posts, part of it is due to the fact that, being able to post only one or two times a week for the moment, I sometimes feel the need to present more of my thoughts in a single moment. Mostly, however, it’s due to the fact that I’m very interested in the themes in question, in the discussion and in what you have to say. You don’t need to feel any obligation to reply in depth, however, nor any obligation to reply in any particular time. I would be completely happy in reading your thoughts as they come and when you have the time and feel disposed to write them, and you can feel completely free as well either to add or not to add to them at any time. I realize as well that writing so much in the other thread when you said you lacked time may have aggravated this. The only forum in which I participated for a longer time was a Literature forum with very long posts, so I’m a little rusty when it comes to the problems brought by this kind of writing. When the context seems unpropitious for longer replies, I will try to condense my responses, break them into different posts or save other interesting points for later occasions.

Re: Did John Williams steal half his career from a few measures by Poule

Moreover, part of the reason why I have been taking every chance to express my views is the fact that I have already been itching to participate for many months now, but did not have the time until recently. I previously wrote two posts here in the “greatest composers” thread under the nickname Kater Murr, which I later discarded due to the existence of another user named Tomcat Murr in the site, of whom I was previously unaware. Ever since reading part of that thread earlier this year, I have been eager to participate on the board, but only now, after finishing my driver’s education, I have found some time. Your comments on Byron, especially, to borrow from Kant’s famous phrase, woke me up from many of the remaining vestiges left in my appreciation of his works by the dogmatic slumber of New Criticism, and I’m truly grateful for that. Probably even more than you can imagine, since, as a young poet in the making, huge insights in comparative literature are profoundly transformative in my life and future career. Since then, I have reread most of Byron’s major poems, and spent a lot of time thinking about them, comparing them with other works and, in consequence, I reached several interesting contemplations and conclusions. You probably thought about some of them as well, but, if you are interested, I could write about them in greater depth here.

In fact, for some reasons relative both to the state of current world literature and to the particular background of my own language and country’s tradition, I even ended up reaching the conclusion that Byron would probably be an extremely appropriate influence on my own early poetic career. Beyond the more obvious variable that I’m currently studying Russian, that’s part of the reason why I have been thinking so much about Pushkin, since he is one of the poets I know of which best assimilated and surpassed Byron’s influence in the forms I’m most interested in using. In this way, I have now been struggling with the latter’s influence, and, in trying to go beyond it, with Pushkin’s, as I seek to use aspects of their work to surpass the influence of my closer predecessors, as well as to efficiently respond to them, to my contemporaries and, most of all, to what I perceive to be the current state of affairs both in art and in life at large, and to what I perceive to be the nature of the current audience. Thereby, for all of these reasons, that thread and your comments in it ended up having a great impact on me, and I have been waiting to take part in the board’s discussion ever since. Your posts on Walter Scott, Coleridge and Wordsworth, and all the discussions on the early romantic composers, on Wagner, Mozart and so many others were also a great joy to read. I also followed your book recommendations at that time and went on to read Rosen’s The Romantic Generation and The Classical Style, which may now be my favorite books on music. Thank you very much as well for those recommendations! That thread had so many interesting discussions; it’s a great shame it was deleted.

Re: Did John Williams steal half his career from a few measures by Poule


By the way, now I realize that my earlier comments on my inability to respond may have generated some pressure.

Please be assured, you haven't! The only pressure comes from me, because I really really want to reply (you have a knack for touching on subjects on which I've been having thoughts that I want to get off my chest) - otherwise I'd simply thank you for your wonderful posts and make my apologies for not having any reply - again, I really want to reply, but then I keep running overtime on things I'm supposed to be doing, and putting off replying here, and I feel bad for keeping you waiting. (You're very generous in telling me to take my time - thank you!)


I previously wrote two posts here in the “greatest composers” thread under the nickname Kater Murr

I remember you! On which note, it remains amazing to me that I never seem to meet anybody in real life - or, come to think of it, anywhere else on the Internet - who's heard of that book, yet we've have at least three people (you, Tom, me) visiting this forum who have.


Probably even more than you can imagine, since, as a young poet in the making, huge insights in comparative literature are profoundly transformative in my life and future career. Since then, I have reread most of Byron’s major poems, and spent a lot of time thinking about them, comparing them with other works and, in consequence, I reached several interesting contemplations and conclusions. You probably thought about some of them as well, but, if you are interested, I could write about them in greater depth here.

Oh dear God, please write about them!!! The greater the depth, the better.

Also, since you're a young poet, I'd be very interested in any thoughts you might be inclined to share on poetry currently being written (or for that matter on your own).

Will reply to everything else... I don't know, let's say HOPEFULLY this weekend or first half of next week.


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Re: Did John Williams steal half his career from a few measures by Poule


I remember you! On which note, it remains amazing to me that I never seem to meet anybody in real life - or, come to think of it, anywhere else on the Internet - who's heard of that book, yet we've have at least three people (you, Tom, me) visiting this forum who have.


Yes! Unfortunately, it does not seem to be so well known as some of his shorter tales, like the “Nußknacker und Mausekönig”, “Der Sandmann”, “Die Puppe”, or “Der goldne Topf”. Despite the loveliness of these works, I consider the “Lebens-Ansichten des Katers Murr” Hoffmann’s masterpiece, and it’s certainly my favorite early romantic novel, Werther notwithstanding. It’s so funny and imaginative! Outside of here, I have myself only met two other people who have read it. One was Portuguese, and the other German; surprisingly for me, the latter said that Hofmann, unlike Goethe, Schiller and Heine, was not mentioned in her literature classes during Middle and High School. I would not have expected that, since his influence in world literature and classical music is, if not so clear and extensive, perhaps, as that of Goethe and Schiller, at least as obvious as that of Heine, who would probably be the fourth mandatory reference in the German Literature of the 19th century. Hoffmann’s influence was conclusively substantial in the works of Pushkin, Poe, Gogol, Hans Christian Andersen, Dickens, Machado de Assis, Dostoyevsky, Baudelaire, Kafka, Borges, Sōseki (on whose “I Am a Cat” Murr had a strong and direct influence), Lǔ Xùn, Juan Rulfo and, through Borges, Kafka and Rulfo, at least indirectly on the whole magical realist style; not to mention the use of his works in the music of Schumann, Tchaikovsky, Saint-Léon and Offenbach. Writers with an influence as extensive as this are relatively rare, so I would naturally expect his nation to always come back to and talk about his works; although, stopping to think about it, few writers were ever as influent as Byron, and, at least since New Criticism, interest in his work seems to have become less general in the Anglosphere. Perhaps hers was an uncommon case, however.

Murr is definitely very dear to me. I love animals, and it would be hard for me to think of a more colorful and witty anthropomorphic characterization of a pet. Haughty about his feline attributes, proud of his sharp claws and intellect, cunning, but, quite often, sympathetically silly; hasty and imprudent, confident, but caring for his human master, even when he is unable to restrain his animal impulses. He closely resembles my previous dog, who was, himself, quite haughty and bold, silly in his bravado, as he provoked dogs much larger than him from a safe spot, but quite diligent and lively in hunting mice, as well as in accompanying me and my family in all human activities, from cooking to running, when he showed rare politeness and affection. Both for this reason, and for Hoffmann’s interesting juxtaposition of the cat’s autobiography and the story of Kreisler, it remains one of my favorite books. Although its tone is more somber, another favorite of mine when it comes to anthropomorphic treatments of animals is Tolstoy’s Kholstomer, one of my favorite short stories. Have you read it? It’s about an old, fallen noble horse who, in media res, tells the story of his life to the younger horses that bully him. Later, he meets again his old owner, who does not recognize him, gets sick and is finally killed by his new proprietors, his carcass serving as nourishment for wolf cubs. In its treatment of death, it closely resembles The Death of Ivan Ilyich and his earlier short story, Three Deaths.

Incidentally, have you ever heard of Machado de Assis’ “The Posthumous Memoirs of Bras Cubas”? Most Brazilian readers and critics consider it, and with good reason, our best national novel. It’s a very inventive 19th century comedy, depicting, in first person perspective, the life of a man from his own standpoint after death. Its narrative tone is close to that used by Pushkin in Eugene Oneguin – cheerful, digressive, removed, expressive –, but, unlike in the poem, with a strong presence of what the narrator calls some “fretful touches of pessimism”. Like Murr, it shows a strong Sternean influence, as well as the use of fantastic elements within earthlier scenarios, in order to handle and satirize important themes from the traditions in which the authors were participating – in Hoffmann’s case, early German Romanticism; in Machado’s, Realism. Even though it’s a comedy, however, and even though its tone is mostly upbeat, it’s actually a quite nihilist book, probably the most properly Schopenhauerian novel which, in the moment, comes to my mind. Like Gogol’s The Nose and The Overcoat, its use of fantastic elements for social satire can be seen as an early pioneering effort towards the establishment of magical realism, while its parody of Zola and social Darwinism, as well as its combination of Sternean digressions and Schopenhauerian existentialism, in this particular case, place Machado very close to Dostoyevsky, Ibsen and Kierkegaard. While usually classified as a realist novel, I believe existentialist might be a more accurate label, in the absence of a better one. Even this classification may not be completely precise, however, since Machado’s explorations of the potentials of first person narrative, especially as it pertains to unreliability, irony and bias almost make him look, at times, like a proto-modernist. His use of these devices is probably where his work was the most special. If you become interested in readinng it, the best translation is the Library of Latin America’s.



Oh dear God, please write about them!!! The greater the depth, the better.

Also, since you're a young poet, I'd be very interested in any thoughts you might be inclined to share on poetry currently being written (or for that matter on your own).


Thank you for showing interest! I will be sure to drop by during the week to write about my thoughts on Byron. After that, as soon as I have the time, I will also share some of my thoughts on contemporary poetry and fiction, what I like about it, what I dislike about it, how I think it compares to the literature of previous generations, what I think should change, and, finally some of the directions I believe it could take, and which I would like to explore. Despite the fact that I like very little of current production, it’s certainly one of my favorite subjects.

Re: Did John Williams steal half his career from a few measures by Poule

Phew! I’m sorry, I intended to post much earlier, but, unfortunately, I became overdue with my coursework during the past two weeks. Considering cram school will be off during the holiday season, however, I will be much freer during December, which means I’m unlikely to suffer similar problems during the next month. Since it’s prone to be a longer post, I will come back tomorrow to write at greater on Byron and current poetry. As for my own poetry, I would love to talk about it as well, but I’m always somewhat apprehensive that, in doing so, but in not being able to show you any of my own verses, or even those of my closest and most important Portuguese-language precursors, I may end up sounding like Murr, speaking proudly to the reader about his sharp claws and feline witticisms. Taking that into account, I have been trying to translate into iambic English meter some short poems and excerpts by important Portuguese-language poets, like Camões, Fernando Pessoa and Sophia Andresen, as well as some of my own verses. Being improvised poetic renditions I’m writing during my breaks, they are prone to contain some mistakes or awkward decisions. Rough as they might be, however, they are probably more adequate than literal transcriptions, and, after my literary career is already well established, I may still reuse some of them, with some changes, in future translation projects, considering I have long intended to work on more adequate renditions of some of our most important poems in other languages, especially English. If you feel you would not be bothered by reading some of these improvised translations, I could send them to you in private, in order to clarify my commentary on them. Please let me know whether or not you would like me to do so!

Re: Did John Williams steal half his career from a few measures by Poule


If you feel you would not be bothered by reading some of these improvised translations, I could send them to you in private, in order to clarify my commentary on them. Please let me know whether or not you would like me to do so!

Yes please!


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Re: Did John Williams steal half his career from a few measures by Poule


Yes! Unfortunately, it does not seem to be so well known as some of his shorter tales, like the “Nußknacker und Mausekönig”, “Der Sandmann”, “Die Puppe”, or “Der goldne Topf”. Despite the loveliness of these works, I consider the “Lebens-Ansichten des Katers Murr” Hoffmann’s masterpiece, and it’s certainly my favorite early romantic novel, Werther notwithstanding. It’s so funny and imaginative! Outside of here, I have myself only met two other people who have read it. One was Portuguese, and the other German; surprisingly for me, the latter said that Hofmann, unlike Goethe, Schiller and Heine, was not mentioned in her literature classes during Middle and High School. I would not have expected that, since his influence in world literature and classical music is, if not so clear and extensive, perhaps, as that of Goethe and Schiller, at least as obvious as that of Heine, who would probably be the fourth mandatory reference in the German Literature of the 19th century. Hoffmann’s influence was conclusively substantial in the works of Pushkin, Poe, Gogol, Hans Christian Andersen, Dickens, Machado de Assis, Dostoyevsky, Baudelaire, Kafka, Borges, Sōseki (on whose “I Am a Cat” Murr had a strong and direct influence), Lǔ Xùn, Juan Rulfo and, through Borges, Kafka and Rulfo, at least indirectly on the whole magical realist style; not to mention the use of his works in the music of Schumann, Tchaikovsky, Saint-Léon and Offenbach. Writers with an influence as extensive as this are relatively rare, so I would naturally expect his nation to always come back to and talk about his works; although, stopping to think about it, few writers were ever as influent as Byron, and, at least since New Criticism, interest in his work seems to have become less general in the Anglosphere. Perhaps hers was an uncommon case, however.

Interesting. Half my family is Austrian, I'll try to remember to ask how much - if any - Hoffmann they encountered in school.

I've read that Victor Hugo is mostly ignored by modern Francophone poetry criticism. (Of course most Anglophones don't even know he was a poet, but that may just be because we can't read him.) I think maybe in his case and in Byron's the main reason is ideological: their popularity and unambiguous political stance is a rebuke to most of the English and French poetry that came after them. (Oh God, if I see one more apolitical academic explaining that REALLY Hugo and/or Byron's politics was superficial, not actually politics at all, sublimated personal animosities, really...)


Incidentally, have you ever heard of Machado de Assis’ “The Posthumous Memoirs of Bras Cubas”? Most Brazilian readers and critics consider it, and with good reason, our best national novel. It’s a very inventive 19th century comedy, depicting, in first person perspective, the life of a man from his own standpoint after death. Its narrative tone is close to that used by Pushkin in Eugene Oneguin – cheerful, digressive, removed, expressive –, but, unlike in the poem, with a strong presence of what the narrator calls some “fretful touches of pessimism”. Like Murr, it shows a strong Sternean influence, as well as the use of fantastic elements within earthlier scenarios, in order to handle and satirize important themes from the traditions in which the authors were participating – in Hoffmann’s case, early German Romanticism; in Machado’s, Realism. Even though it’s a comedy, however, and even though its tone is mostly upbeat, it’s actually a quite nihilist book, probably the most properly Schopenhauerian novel which, in the moment, comes to my mind. Like Gogol’s The Nose and The Overcoat, its use of fantastic elements for social satire can be seen as an early pioneering effort towards the establishment of magical realism, while its parody of Zola and social Darwinism, as well as its combination of Sternean digressions and Schopenhauerian existentialism, in this particular case, place Machado very close to Dostoyevsky, Ibsen and Kierkegaard. While usually classified as a realist novel, I believe existentialist might be a more accurate label, in the absence of a better one. Even this classification may not be completely precise, however, since Machado’s explorations of the potentials of first person narrative, especially as it pertains to unreliability, irony and bias almost make him look, at times, like a proto-modernist. His use of these devices is probably where his work was the most special. If you become interested in readinng it, the best translation is the Library of Latin America’s.

I have not heard of it, so thank you for the recommendation, including the recommended translation! Particularly since this sounds far, far, far more to my taste than the last introduction to Brazilian literature that was recommended to me (Clarice Lispector's The Hour of the Star).


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Re: Did John Williams steal half his career from a few measures by Poule

Hello! I got caught up with the holidays and a preparatory exam that was unexpectedly scheduled in late December for this past week, but I will try to give all my impressions this weekend.


Interesting. Half my family is Austrian, I'll try to remember to ask how much - if any - Hoffmann they encountered in school.


Thanks! Your family background looks very interesting. Did you grow up speaking both English and German as native languages?


I've read that Victor Hugo is mostly ignored by modern Francophone poetry criticism. (Of course most Anglophones don't even know he was a poet, but that may just be because we can't read him.) I think maybe in his case and in Byron's the main reason is ideological: their popularity and unambiguous political stance is a rebuke to most of the English and French poetry that came after them. (Oh God, if I see one more apolitical academic explaining that REALLY Hugo and/or Byron's politics was superficial, not actually politics at all, sublimated personal animosities, really...)


I didn't know that about Hugo’s current neglect in French Academia. Thank you! Hugo’s reception is of great interest to me. Do you remember where you read about this trend? Among books on the subject, Catherine Mayaux’s “La réception de Victor Hugo au xxe siècle” has been in my wishlist for quite some time, but I have not yet been able to read it. I tend to agree with you about the political motivation of Byron's and Hugo’s negligence, and I completely share your sentiments. Eliot's disapproval of Romanticism, in special, seems to me to have been motivated chiefly by ideological reasons, which were later rationalized according to formalistic arguments, and many of his peers in New Criticism seem to have followed a similar pattern. That’s probably why Keats suffered the least in their writings, as he was, politically, the most harmless of the three great English poets from the second Romantic generation. Meanwhile, even John Milton, England’s formalist par excellence, was heavily criticized by many of the most relevant new critics, probably due to his independent Protestant ideas and his Republicanism.

Regarding Hugo, my experience with current and late 20th century trends in French literary criticism has been, unfortunately, fairly limited, but I’m far more familiarized with the early reception of his works, which tended to become more ambivalent throughout the years. Carpeaux, the literary historian with whom I was most familiarized during my childhood and my teens, said, in his history of romantic literature, that most French romantics, regarding their stance on Hugo, followed the pattern of Gautier: starting with Byronic influences, they admired Hugo’s early phase, incorporating part of its pictorial, exaltative and Dantesque elements; with the premiere of Hernani, they enthusiastically embraced his political progressiveness, but became gradually more moderate as the century advanced, culminating in the formalism of Parnassianism, Symbolism, Realism (in prose) and the Decadent movement. From what I have read from other authors, I think this development in the critical milieu of France was, at least in part, related to the clime of political impotence that followed the failure of the 1848 Revolution. My limited impression about French modernist criticism is that it followed this pattern of ambivalence, probably due to its debt to Mallarmé, Baudelaire and Rimbaud, but that, nonetheless, it did not go as far as New Criticism went in its neglect of Romanticism and political commitment. However, most of the French critical writings from that age I read were solely by Gide or Valéry, which means my perspective is probably biased.


I have not heard of it, so thank you for the recommendation, including the recommended translation! Particularly since this sounds far, far, far more to my taste than the last introduction to Brazilian literature that was recommended to me (Clarice Lispector's The Hour of the Star).


I hope you enjoy the novel, whenever you have the time to read it! In my experience, it’s a book that refuses to leave the reader even after its conclusion, and, given that it treats many of the most important themes of our national tradition in a way that is both universally relevant and original in the larger spectrum of the entire Western tradition, it’s always my first recommendation as an introduction to Brazilian literature. Clarice Lispector is very popular among post-modernist students, especially due to her dehumanizing and absurdist characterization of modern life, playing a similar role in our literature to that played by Pynchon in American literature. Nonetheless, even if I were to consider only the 20th century, and even if I were to set poetry and drama aside, I admit there are, at the very least, 12 or 13 other authors which strike me as more relevant to the development of our prose tradition, at least some of which (Guimaraens Rosa, Lima Barreto, Graciliano Ramos, Euclides da Cunha, Erico Veríssimo, Rachel de Queiroz, etc) were translated into English. Machado, however, is better than all of them, and Brás Cubas is his masterpiece.

Re: Did John Williams steal half his career from a few measures by Poule


Did you grow up speaking both English and German as native languages?

Yes, though as a result of having almost no formal instruction in German, and of eventually having gotten into the habit of speaking less German than English, my situation at present is that I can understand any written or spoken German except legal documents, and can say anything I want to but invariably with a grammatical mistake somewhere.


I didn't know that about Hugo’s current neglect in French Academia. Thank you! Hugo’s reception is of great interest to me. Do you remember where you read about this trend?

I was thinking of this story, told by Harold Bloom in (I think) 1988, recalling (I think) the 1970s:

We were recent friends, had encountered one another while lecturing separately at Princeton, and fell into cultural debate on the train. Deploring a belated French modernism that wholly absorbed my friend, I urged the poetic strength of Victor Hugo as against that of the more fashionable Mallarmé. In honest amazement, my philosophic companion burst forth: "But, Harold, in France Victor Hugo is a poet read only by schoolchildren!"

Unfortunately Bloom didn't identify his "philosophic companion." I should have added that for all I know this may be completely out of date by now.


Eliot's disapproval of Romanticism, in special, seems to me to have been motivated chiefly by ideological reasons, which were later rationalized according to formalistic arguments, and many of his peers in New Criticism seem to have followed a similar pattern. That’s probably why Keats suffered the least in their writings, as he was, politically, the most harmless of the three great English poets from the second Romantic generation. Meanwhile, even John Milton, England’s formalist par excellence, was heavily criticized by many of the most relevant new critics, probably due to his independent Protestant ideas and his Republicanism.

Regarding Hugo, my experience with current and late 20th century trends in French literary criticism has been, unfortunately, fairly limited, but I’m far more familiarized with the early reception of his works, which tended to become more ambivalent throughout the years. Carpeaux, the literary historian with whom I was most familiarized during my childhood and my teens, said, in his history of romantic literature, that most French romantics, regarding their stance on Hugo, followed the pattern of Gautier: starting with Byronic influences, they admired Hugo’s early phase, incorporating part of its pictorial, exaltative and Dantesque elements; with the premiere of Hernani, they enthusiastically embraced his political progressiveness, but became gradually more moderate as the century advanced, culminating in the formalism of Parnassianism, Symbolism, Realism (in prose) and the Decadent movement. From what I have read from other authors, I think this development in the critical milieu of France was, at least in part, related to the clime of political impotence that followed the failure of the 1848 Revolution. My limited impression about French modernist criticism is that it followed this pattern of ambivalence, probably due to its debt to Mallarmé, Baudelaire and Rimbaud, but that, nonetheless, it did not go as far as New Criticism went in its neglect of Romanticism and political commitment. However, most of the French critical writings from that age I read were solely by Gide or Valéry, which means my perspective is probably biased.

This is all wonderful. Somehow it never occurred to me that the quasi-Catholic (less frequently actually Catholic) New Critics' grudge against Milton might have been partly religiously motivated - but as soon as you mention it, of course! And the idea that the tendency of poetry toward apoliticism was a response to liberal political impotence after 1848 is interesting in particular, though I think it may be significant that Hugo, who experienced that more acutely than anyone, became more political than ever.


In my experience, it’s a book that refuses to leave the reader even after its conclusion, and, given that it treats many of the most important themes of our national tradition in a way that is both universally relevant and original in the larger spectrum of the entire Western tradition, it’s always my first recommendation as an introduction to Brazilian literature. Clarice Lispector is very popular among post-modernist students, especially due to her dehumanizing and absurdist characterization of modern life, playing a similar role in our literature to that played by Pynchon in American literature. Nonetheless, even if I were to consider only the 20th century, and even if I were to set poetry and drama aside, I admit there are, at the very least, 12 or 13 other authors which strike me as more relevant to the development of our prose tradition, at least some of which (Guimaraens Rosa, Lima Barreto, Graciliano Ramos, Euclides da Cunha, Erico Veríssimo, Rachel de Queiroz, etc) were translated into English. Machado, however, is better than all of them, and Brás Cubas is his masterpiece.

Thank you for all of this!


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Re: Did John Williams steal half his career from a few measures by Poule

...but none of those composers you mention ever wrote a film score. There are some obvious borrowings from this & that for some of his main themes, & his use of leitmotif is certainly a Wagnerian feature, but his actual scoring is all his. He has a very distinctive sound world, one which I always recognise as his & no-one else's. No other composer I can think of has his ability to perfectly encapsulate the mood of a scene or even a fleeting emotion than he, & he's especially brilliant of adopting these rapid changes of tempo & feel into music that works reasonably well on its own too.

I long-wanted to be a film-scorer, & he was always the inspiration.

Re: Did John Williams steal half his career from a few measures by Poule

Good points, fud-slush. Please rest assured that I did not intend to offend your inspiration, and, if his music does touch you, then you are right in liking him, and I can even understand in part why you feel that way. Personally, I admit Williams’ approach does not move me that much, but, despite any borrowings, I would not consider him properly incompetent in film scoring, by any means, and he is at least superior to most others who follow the same approach in current Hollywood. Regarding the scoring itself, I believe most of my dissatisfaction would probably fall under the same reasons for which I tend to dislike Spielberg, probably the best director to work together with Williams.

While watching their movies, I rarely find myself admiring the way the music and the direction add to the conventional; rather, I’m most often caught noticing how their ideas make the conventional more memorable, sometimes in a good sense, sometimes in a not so good sense. I prefer memorable conventionalism to forgetful conventionalism, but, even when I find their decisions satisfying, I’m generally able to enjoy them only in a superficial level, which is to say, even their best efforts don’t really stimulate me in any significant manner. I know many others highly enjoy their work, however, and it’s also possible as well that my personal preferences may have led me to miss some of Williams’ merits. Are there any sequences in which you believe his talent for portraying the mood of a scene particularly stands out?

Re: Did John Williams steal half his career from a few measures by Poule

Thanks Vox, & no problem re offence...none taken at all!

I had designs on being a film composer for years; Jaws got me going as a 6 year-old & from then on I was always fascinated by Williams' work. His use of leitmotif & the intermingling of themes to aid in telling the story I think are particularly brilliant. Whilst I'm in no way an action- / fantasy-only movie-watcher, the scores he did for not only Spielberg, but also for Star Wars & Superman, were the sort of soundtrack to my childhood (I was born in 1970), if that doesn't sound too wanky. He can be a bit mushy sometimes, but it's quality mush all the same.

Particular scenes? Hmm, many. My favourite cue of all time is this one from Jaws (also my fav film), & this vid shows just how his (& I'm sure many composers') contribution is essential for conveying & building upon the right atmosphere....I love how the music changes from the shark's thump thump theme (at its most basic) to theirs as soon as the barrel hits the water...they're back in charge:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ae1Z_fWDZ7s&t=4s

The other one that immediately sprigs to mind is the last 10 mins or so of the end of ET...from where the kids cycle off to the spaceship. For me it's masterpiece of musical storytelling, & Spielberg actually edited the film around it, rather than the normal 'vice versa'. Just before it starts, the Feds & Eliot's mother are running to the park to catch up with the van 'no guns, they're children!' she screams, but Williams is already ahead of it; her panic & the threat of guns diluted by the expectation of excitement Williams creates.

It must have been Williams that eventually led me to Wagner (& Strauss), the ultimate leitmotif master & supreme commander of the potential power of music to tell a story. Unlike Wagner, I'd never go to a Williams concert (or indeed that of any film composer) as I don't think his music works on its own...it needs the visuals...but he'll always be my no.1 (yuk).

Re: Did John Williams steal half his career from a few measures by Poule


Particular scenes? Hmm, many. My favourite cue of all time is this one from Jaws (also my fav film), & this vid shows just how his (& I'm sure many composers') contribution is essential for conveying & building upon the right atmosphere....I love how the music changes from the shark's thump thump theme (at its most basic) to theirs as soon as the barrel hits the water...they're back in charge:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ae1Z_fWDZ7s&t=4s

Thank you for the example!


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Re: Did John Williams steal half his career from a few measures by Poule

Re: Did John Williams steal half his career from a few measures by Poule

I’m happy to know I did not offend you! Your history with Williams is very interesting, especially the way he eventually led you to Strauss and Wagner. Thank you for sharing it with me. Wagner was probably already too radical for my parents’ taste, but, perhaps due to his high reputation in the classical tradition, he was still present in my childhood nonetheless, and my early exposition to Tristan was probably very important in facilitating my later introduction to modernist music and, later yet, to atonality, a process which was also facilitated by my contact with popular media, like Disney’s Fantasia. Sorry for not responding earlier; since I was studying for an important test, I stayed away from the boards during the past month.

Re: Did John Williams steal half his career from a few measures by Poule


Incidentally, which would you consider his best pieces? I would like to explore his work in greater depth in the future.

Supposedly he's best at songs. Thus far his work in that form doesn't do much for me. Though I REALLY like the piano introduction to the first song of the "Banalités" - kind of like Ravel, maybe, but somehow more modern.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ee21a2RKWdg

And then the consensus on "The Dialogues of the Carmelites," as best I can tell, is that it may be his masterpiece, but also has a lot of really boring stretches before the Harrowing end. I wouldn't know, though, because I haven't listened. I have listened to his setting of Apollinaire's "The Breasts of Tiresias" - not bad, but I enjoy reading the play more. I've also listened to "La voix humaine" - again, not bad, not amazing. But maybe I should revisit.

Out of what I've heard by Poulenc, it's the later keyboard concertos that most impress me (for two pianos, for organ, and maybe to a somewhat lesser extent the one for piano). The thing that finally made me decide to start paying more attention to him was the beginning of the movement I previously linked to - the slow movement of the concerto for two pianos. I somewhere read either Robin Holloway or Ned Rorem writing that even when Poulenc blatantly plagiarizes - which is apparently quite often - he somehow sounds like himself. And that passage delivers! Unmistakably a parody of the theme from the slow movement of Mozart's "Coronation" concerto - and yet with such a distinct personality that it's more than mere parody. This ties into something I read early this year in one of Emmanuel Todd's earlier books ("Le fou et le proletaire," 1980) - about the brutal discipline maintained by the continental European bourgeoisie (haute and petite) in the 18th, 19th & early 20th centuries, and the relaxation of the same in France as the 20th century progressed, and, more particularly, identifying Dada as part of the efforts in that direction. And if there's a major composer somewhat affiliated with the more optimistic side of Dada and Surrealism, then I guess it has to be Poulenc or nobody.

On a probably more trivial level, I very much enjoy the three perpetual movements for piano, the "Bestiaire" song cycle, the chamber concerto for harpsichord, and the flute sonata.

Oh, and most of the Stabat Mater drifted past me the one time I listened to the whole thing, but I really enjoy the "Eja mater" movement - out of nowhere, suddenly you're listening to a catchy, upbeat Spanish-ish tune, except harmonized like - well, like Poulenc (by which I guess I mean, the bass sounds like the first of his three perpetual movements). I should listen to more of his religious music.


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Re: Did John Williams steal half his career from a few measures by Poule

Thank you very much for your recommendations! I greatly enjoyed them, especially the concertos, which I have listened to. Your thoughts on them are quite interesting and, having listened to the slow movement, I can clearly see what you mean. It’s remarkable how aptly Poulenc was able to turn Mozart’s Larghetto from the “Coronation” into a such a distinctly personal, Poulenc-esque passage! Although perhaps somewhat less impressive, I also found his treatment of the Andante from the 21th Concerto later in the same movement attractive, especially in the way it seems to be perfectly in place, in spite of the quite different passages which surround it. His talent for assimilating parodies and quotations in his personal style is indeed outstanding. Although Poulenc is the member of Les Six with whom I was the most familiar, I admit I never paid much attention to his music, nor to that of his colleagues. Taking into account your observations, however, I would like to remedy that soon. I will look for The Dialogues of the Carmelites, for his song cycles and for the others pieces you mentioned in the near future. Do you recommend any of the other members of the six?

Your connection between Poulenc’s music and Emmanuel Todd’s remark on the gradual social subsidence of the European bourgeoisie is also fascinating! In which way does he connect this transition with Dada and Surrealism? Incidentally, do you recommend the book?

Re: Did John Williams steal half his career from a few measures by Poule


Do you recommend any of the other members of the six?

I really like Milhaud's "Creation du monde." I've listened to "Saudades do Brasil," "Le boeuf sur le toit," and "Le train bleu" and I'm pretty sure I enjoyed them but I can't remember anything about them now. I remember being bored by the string octet, which consists of his 14th and 15th string quartets played simultaneously.

I probably wouldn't even remember that I've heard Auric's "Les fâcheux," except that the very first few bars were unmistakably reworked by Gershwin into the first few bars of his piano concerto. I'm not even sure if Auric's introduction is itself especially good or if it just stands out to me because Gershwin made something out of it, but anyway, I noticed it.

I love how the combination of the two instruments sounds in Taillefaire's concerto for harp and piano. It doesn't particularly hold my attention from beginning to end, but then, not everything has to.

I've never heard anything I particularly liked by Honegger. But of course your experience might be different.

I had to look up who the last member is. I'm pretty sure I've just never heard anything by Louis Durey, period.


Your connection between Poulenc’s music and Emmanuel Todd’s remark on the gradual social subsidence of the European bourgeoisie is also fascinating! In which way does he connect this transition with Dada and Surrealism? Incidentally, do you recommend the book?

He makes a passing remark while comparing then-contemporary (1980) France and Germany. As best as I can reconstruct from memory: he uses Freud's theory of civilization and its discontents as a starting point, then notes that in the 19th century French and German petite bourgeoisie, the anxiety resulting from a repressive code of behavior was compounded by anxiety resulting from their precarious economic position, and argues that this explains particularly high rates of suicide, alcoholism, and domestic abuse in the petite bourgeoisie (higher than in the less disciplined proletariat, and to a lesser extent higher than in the disciplined but economically secure haute bourgeoisie). He then finds that in the third quarter of the 20th century, the French middle classes seem to have become more relaxed, while the German middle classes still retain much of their old discipline. He mostly tries to demonstrate this with demographic indicators - for example, in contrast to the late 19th century, the French suicide rate in 1980 was much lower than Germany's. But he also briefly mentions popular culture: he suggests that the phenomenon of French comic books shows that contemporary French artists are generally better able to adopt the worldview of children than German artists, who haven't produced any comparable phenomenon. It's here that the reference to Dada comes in: he says that the Dadaists have helped create the current conditions in France. I guess the implication is that Dada made French artists take themselves less seriously, and perhaps, more broadly, to some extent, made the French middle classes take life less seriously.

I do strongly recommend the book (though as far as I know it only exists in French, if it matters) (you can tell how much I admire the author from the fact that I read it anyway, even though I read French at the rate of about one sentence per minute). I basically recommend everything by Todd, but particularly the book already mentioned; "Explanation of Ideology" (" La troisième planet" is the original French title); "The causes of progress"; "L'origine des systèmes familiaux, Tome 1: L'Eurasie" (a recent update of and supplement to the ideas in "Explanation of Ideology," at much greater length); and "Who Is Charlie?" (published last year and will probably remain very politically salient for the next few years). I admire him probably more than is entirely healthy for a somewhat ambitious history student.


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Re: Did John Williams steal half his career from a few measures by Poule


I really like Milhaud's "Creation du monde." I've listened to "Saudades do Brasil," "Le boeuf sur le toit," and "Le train bleu" and I'm pretty sure I enjoyed them but I can't remember anything about them now. I remember being bored by the string octet, which consists of his 14th and 15th string quartets played simultaneously.

I probably wouldn't even remember that I've heard Auric's "Les fâcheux," except that the very first few bars were unmistakably reworked by Gershwin into the first few bars of his piano concerto. I'm not even sure if Auric's introduction is itself especially good or if it just stands out to me because Gershwin made something out of it, but anyway, I noticed it.

I love how the combination of the two instruments sounds in Taillefaire's concerto for harp and piano. It doesn't particularly hold my attention from beginning to end, but then, not everything has to.

I've never heard anything I particularly liked by Honegger. But of course your experience might be different.

I had to look up who the last member is. I'm pretty sure I've just never heard anything by Louis Durey, period.


Thank you for your recommendations! I will look for the pieces by Milhaud and for Taillefaire's concerto for harp and piano as soon as I have the time. I probably would also be interested in listening to Auric’s Les fâcheux, at least in order to better understand Gershwin’s influences.



He makes a passing remark while comparing then-contemporary (1980) France and Germany. As best as I can reconstruct from memory: he uses Freud's theory of civilization and its discontents as a starting point, then notes that in the 19th century French and German petite bourgeoisie, the anxiety resulting from a repressive code of behavior was compounded by anxiety resulting from their precarious economic position, and argues that this explains particularly high rates of suicide, alcoholism, and domestic abuse in the petite bourgeoisie (higher than in the less disciplined proletariat, and to a lesser extent higher than in the disciplined but economically secure haute bourgeoisie). He then finds that in the third quarter of the 20th century, the French middle classes seem to have become more relaxed, while the German middle classes still retain much of their old discipline. He mostly tries to demonstrate this with demographic indicators - for example, in contrast to the late 19th century, the French suicide rate in 1980 was much lower than Germany's. But he also briefly mentions popular culture: he suggests that the phenomenon of French comic books shows that contemporary French artists are generally better able to adopt the worldview of children than German artists, who haven't produced any comparable phenomenon. It's here that the reference to Dada comes in: he says that the Dadaists have helped create the current conditions in France. I guess the implication is that Dada made French artists take themselves less seriously, and perhaps, more broadly, to some extent, made the French middle classes take life less seriously.


That’s an interesting thesis! Thank you for the explanation. Your association of Poulenc to this phenomenon is also thought-provoking. I believe I can see some parallels to Poulenc’s style in other countries, although I would not go so far as saying my examples reflect the same phenomenon, for there are some troubling variables. Latin American, Portuguese and Italian “pure poetry” (basically French-influenced modernist poetry freed from its decadent traits), Latin-American political poetry and most of Brazilian modernism were also either optimistic in attitude, rebellious against social discipline or both, and all had roots in early French modernism. The most troubling factor in these examples, however, would probably be the fact that all of these regions were under authoritarian military dictatorships during long periods of the twentieth century. Also, while I do feel that the bourgeoisie and the upper middle classes, in these regions, are less worried today about social discipline than they were in previous centuries, when aristocratic threats were more feasible, I’m not sure they would match Todd’s criteria. I don’t have access to all of the relevant data, so I could be wrong, of course, but I feel like a prolonged experience with dictatorship took a toil in these nations. Nevertheless, they also shared, during the century, a strong cultural influence from France and the growth (or appearance, however slight) of bourgeois and upper middle classes, which may have been significant to the development of such artistic trends. I also wonder how England and the United States would compare to France in this regard. Does Todd mention any of these regions, or, alternatively, do you have any personal views on the social discipline of their bourgeoisie and upper middle classes, as well as on how it relates to their art?


I do strongly recommend the book (though as far as I know it only exists in French, if it matters) (you can tell how much I admire the author from the fact that I read it anyway, even though I read French at the rate of about one sentence per minute). I basically recommend everything by Todd, but particularly the book already mentioned; "Explanation of Ideology" (" La troisième planet" is the original French title); "The causes of progress"; "L'origine des systèmes familiaux, Tome 1: L'Eurasie" (a recent update of and supplement to the ideas in "Explanation of Ideology," at much greater length); and "Who Is Charlie?" (published last year and will probably remain very politically salient for the next few years). I admire him probably more than is entirely healthy for a somewhat ambitious history student.


Thank you for the recommendations! I had four years of French when younger and, although my command of the language is somewhat rusty by now, I would still most likely be able to read Todd’s books. I have several books in French, as well as some grammars I intend to use to improve my usage until I reach complete fluency, but, for now, I’m waiting until I have the time to come back and study the language in greater leisure – most likely after I leave cram school. The library I most regularly frequent in on strike this month, but I will look for them as soon as it is back in service. If they are not available there, however, I will be sure to order them sometime. Which book do you recommend as an introduction to his work?

So you are a history student? That’s great! I love reading about history. This year, during my free time, I have been following at a slow pace Harvard’s online course series ChinaX, about Chinese history, on the edX platform, and it has been a highly interesting experience. In which area of history are you specializing?

Re: Did John Williams steal half his career from a few measures by Poule


I believe I can see some parallels to Poulenc’s style in other countries, although I would not go so far as saying my examples reflect the same phenomenon, for there are some troubling variables. Latin American, Portuguese and Italian “pure poetry” (basically French-influenced modernist poetry freed from its decadent traits), Latin-American political poetry and most of Brazilian modernism were also either optimistic in attitude, rebellious against social discipline or both, and all had roots in early French modernism. The most troubling factor in these examples, however, would probably be the fact that all of these regions were under authoritarian military dictatorships during long periods of the twentieth century. Also, while I do feel that the bourgeoisie and the upper middle classes, in these regions, are less worried today about social discipline than they were in previous centuries, when aristocratic threats were more feasible, I’m not sure they would match Todd’s criteria. I don’t have access to all of the relevant data, so I could be wrong, of course, but I feel like a prolonged experience with dictatorship took a toil in these nations.

Are you suggesting that the experience of military dictatorship may have reversed previously optimistic and rebellious tendencies in Latin American art? Or that optimistic and rebellious tendencies in art may have helped produce military dictatorships? (Or both?)


I also wonder how England and the United States would compare to France in this regard. Does Todd mention any of these regions

The thesis of Le fou et le proletaire is that Marxist theory is incorrect in viewing the proletariat as a revolutionary or potentially revolutionary class, and that revolutions - 1789 in France, 1917 in Russia, 1933 in Germany - are always caused by the petite bourgeoisie. (The proletariat don't do it because they're collectively too weak; the haute bourgeosie don't do it because they're too comfortable.) England and America are therefore of secondary interest in the book, because the petite bourgeosie is underrepresented in both countries. This explains the relatively placid and conservative nature of their "revolutions" - these are societies where the restless petite bourgeoisie is underrepresented and the passive proletariat is overrepresented.

I simply don't know enough about Latin America to say how the thesis might apply there.


or, alternatively, do you have any personal views on the social discipline of their bourgeoisie and upper middle classes, as well as on how it relates to their art?

I think the art of the English and American middle classes follow roughly the same trend as the continental European middle classes: often profound but with a tendency toward gloominess in the 19th century; generally less gloomy by the late 20th century but now with a tendency toward shallowness.


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Re: Did John Williams steal half his career from a few measures by Poule


Are you suggesting that the experience of military dictatorship may have reversed previously optimistic and rebellious tendencies in Latin American art? Or that optimistic and rebellious tendencies in art may have helped produce military dictatorships? (Or both?)



Actually, neither. Certainly not the latter, however! I apologize, my post was somewhat confusing. What I meant to say is that all major Romance-language Western traditions (except perhaps the Romanian tradition, of whose literature and art I know very little) presented, during the twentieth century, a considerable number of Poulenc-esque artists. I conjectured that was due to our common strong cultural influence from France, but that I was not sure if the existence of such artists reflected the state of our bourgeoisie’s discipline. Since such trends originated in France, however, their origin, or at least early popularization, may in fact have reflected the gradual social relaxation of the upper middle classes. Regarding military dictatorships, I hypothesized that the experience of Fascism in Italy, Portugal and Spain, and of several different kinds of dictatorships in Latin America may have reinforced the discipline of the small bourgeoisie as a whole. That was just a trivial hypothesis, however, as I don’t have the data to back it up. Since most of these regimes were right-wing, it’s also possible that the small bourgeoisie became more relaxed after the elimination of a socialist threat; I have no idea. Unfortunately, I have read very little about the culture of the middle classes, and most of the texts I read, although very enlightening, were quite basic in scope. Nonetheless, I do have great interest in the topic, and I'm grateful for your recommendations.

Yet, I do have some limited knowledge about these nations’ art (until at least the early twentieth century), especially their literature, and, from what I know, I’m not sure I could say our experience with dictatorships really restrained artistic optimism. Sometimes, that was quite the other way around – most relevant poets from pre-Fascist twentieth century Italy were quite similar in tone to Eliot and Strindberg, while, in the Fascist period, poetry became more optimistic and vague, both in message and style. Perhaps it could be said that most dictatorships strengthened optimism in the short-term, since pessimism could more easily be interpreted as criticism. Nonetheless, significant parts of Latin American post-modern literature do seem to be inclined towards pessimism (100 Years of Solitude, for instance, perhaps Latin America's greatest post-modern classic), as well as towards depth, so, in the long term, it's quite possible that dictatorships, and their inherent threat to democracy and self-government, may work towards restricting the political and cultural morale of the population. Considering Márquez may be the greatest literary artist from the late twentieth century, critics also sometimes wonder whether our experience with dictatorship may have strengthened our post-modern literature in some sense, but, taking into account how badly it affected the art of other nations, I don't think that's the case. I tend to believe that it only offered us the social content of the Boom, and that this renewal of Latin American literature was actually chiefly influenced by a phenomenon of an extremely opposite nature – i.e., the slow decay of the old Latin American aristocracy's control of Latin American affairs, as well as the gradual rise of our middle classes and our difficult, ongoing transition towards true (or truer) democratic representation.


The thesis of Le fou et le proletaire is that Marxist theory is incorrect in viewing the proletariat as a revolutionary or potentially revolutionary class, and that revolutions - 1789 in France, 1917 in Russia, 1933 in Germany - are always caused by the petite bourgeoisie. (The proletariat don't do it because they're collectively too weak; the haute bourgeosie don't do it because they're too comfortable.) England and America are therefore of secondary interest in the book, because the petite bourgeosie is underrepresented in both countries. This explains the relatively placid and conservative nature of their "revolutions" - these are societies where the restless petite bourgeoisie is underrepresented and the passive proletariat is overrepresented.


Thank you very much for the explanation. Considering I am a progressive citizen born into a petite bourgeois family, I believe the book will be of great interest to me. Although, since my family raised from the working class to the bourgeoisie only in the last generation, I was actually raised with a weird, sometimes inconsistent combination of working class, middle class and bourgeois values, which is probably one of the factors which influenced me to become more and more progressive during my teens. I’m also very interested in his Troisième Planete and his L'Origine des systèmes familiaux, the only one of your Todd recommendations I could not find in any of my town’s libraries. As I recently reached adulthood and am still in the process of figuring out how to marry my politics and my career, any readings on family types, social classes and their impact on contemporary politics would certainly be very welcome and highly valued, even if they are focused on the context of Europe and the US. I recently read the introduction of “Qui est Charlie?”, and it produced a very positive impression on me. Starting with it, I will be sure to read all of them, except for L’OdSF, which may have to wait until I can order it.

Re: Did John Williams steal half his career from a few measures by Poule

Sorry, forgot to answer these parts:


Thank you for the recommendations! I had four years of French when younger and, although my command of the language is somewhat rusty by now, I would still most likely be able to read Todd’s books. I have several books in French, as well as some grammars I intend to use to improve my usage until I reach complete fluency, but, for now, I’m waiting until I have the time to come back and study the language in greater leisure – most likely after I leave cram school. The library I most regularly frequent in on strike this month, but I will look for them as soon as it is back in service. If they are not available there, however, I will be sure to order them sometime. Which book do you recommend as an introduction to his work?

Hmm. At this moment, probably Qui est Charlie? (available in English as Who Is Charlie? and in German as Wer ist Charlie?).

It's short and applies his ideas to a current issue - the rise of xenophobia in France, but with implications for the general resurgence of rightist nationalism in Europe and the USA. (I first came to him in 2003 through another short, then-topical book, Après l'empire - or rather through the English translation, After the Empire - his diagnosis of the fundamental weaknesses, economic and otherwise, written as a corrective to everybody who thought the USA was all-powerful at the time.) Then, if you like what you see enough to want to read more, Troisième Planete (Explanation of Ideology) is where he first developed what will probably turn out to be his most important ideas (about the influence of family structures on social structures), though he's heavily revised some of those ideas since (culminating, for now, in L'Origine des systèmes familiaux, volume 1).

In the USA, you can read some of it for free on Google books, though I don't know in what other countries the URL will work: https://books.google.com/books?id=eFi-CgAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover


So you are a history student? That’s great! I love reading about history. This year, during my free time, I have been following at a slow pace Harvard’s online course series ChinaX, about Chinese history, on the edX platform, and it has been a highly interesting experience. In which area of history are you specializing?


Late 20th century USA and western Europe, i.e. literally the most overcrowded field there is. Basically I want to explain why the post-WWII social democratic regimes were superseded by neoliberalism, and, secondarily, to trace how this change was reflected in contemporary art.


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Re: Did John Williams steal half his career from a few measures by Poule


In the USA, you can read some of it for free on Google books, though I don't know in what other countries the URL will work: https://books.google.com/books?id=eFi-CgAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover


Thank you! It’s also available in Brazil. I have read the preface and the introduction, both of which left me with a positive impression, especially given the fact that Brazil, too, has been experiencing a conservative resurgence in the past few years, often accompanied by xenophobia and regional racism. After I finish the poetry compilation I’m currently reading, I will be sure to read the rest of Charlie. Interestingly, a long poem I’m currently writing is quite similar to it in its political motivation, being mainly intended as a response against the local conservative middle class’ recent cries against Brazilian Social Democracy, a great part in favor of a new right-wing military government. My initial influences were mainly Hugo’s Les Châtiments, Martial’s epigrams and Brazilian satirists like Machado and Lima Barreto, but, since your commentaries last year, Don Juan has gradually become my central inspiration.


Late 20th century USA and western Europe, i.e. literally the most overcrowded field there is. Basically I want to explain why the post-WWII social democratic regimes were superseded by neoliberalism, and, secondarily, to trace how this change was reflected in contemporary art.


That’s an extremely interesting field! My political stance would probably fall somewhere between social democracy and democratic socialism, so your research would be of great interest to me. That’s even truer now that Latin America, too, has started to walk down a similar path to that of the USA and Europe. If you publish any articles or books, please let me know!

Re: Did John Williams steal half his career from a few measures by Poule


Interestingly, a long poem I’m currently writing is quite similar to it in its political motivation, being mainly intended as a response against the local conservative middle class’ recent cries against Brazilian Social Democracy, a great part in favor of a new right-wing military government.

I'd very much like to attempt to read that, when and if you're ever inclined either to share it privately or to publish it. I just spent a January term government class gritting my teeth while two students visiting from Brazil continually voiced pro-PMDB opinions - wondering if I should say something, hesitating partly because I wasn't sure it was worth disrupting class even further, and partly because I'm not well informed enough about Brazilian politics to be confident about winning an impromptu argument on the subject. Fortunately a third Barzilian student eventually revealed herself as pro-PT and argued with them - I think most of the class liked her better.


My initial influences were mainly Hugo’s Les Châtiments

Yes!!!


Martial’s epigrams and Brazilian satirists like Machado and Lima Barreto, but, since your commentaries last year, Don Juan has gradually become my central inspiration.

Wow. I'm honored.


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Re: Did John Williams steal half his career from a few measures by Poule

Well, just read that the boards are being deleted. Awful timing on my part, I guess. I will still respond to your post on the Tchaikovsky thread, probably later today, and I might or might not be able to present all my thoughts on Byron before deletion. If I’m unable to, then I will try summarize my most important conclusions and ignore the rest. Incidentally, do you frequent any other forums? Exchanging ideas with you has been very stimulating.

Re: Did John Williams steal half his career from a few measures by Poule


and I might or might not be able to present all my thoughts on Byron before deletion. If I’m unable to, then I will try summarize my most important conclusions and ignore the rest. Incidentally, do you frequent any other forums? Exchanging ideas with you has been very stimulating.

Likewise.

I currently sometimes post here, under the name Magnum Miserium: http://www.talkclassical.com. The community there certainly has much to recommend it - fairly active, with a lot of posters with wide ranging tastes who know what they're talking about. The downsides: moderation is a mix of strict and petty, and conversations about literature would probably be swiftly banished to the "Community Forum" (not entirely inactive, but not especially vital either).

(I also listed that site, my email, and my very scant social media presence here: http://www.imdb.com/board/bd0000143/thread/265736871?d=265736871#265736871)

I suppose I may find myself posting at Talkclassical.com more often after they kick us out of here. Or I'm thinking of maybe beginning to post here - http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/forums/music-corner.2/ - as it seems to be the most active music forum on the internet. But then again I may not. I find myself paying less attention to non-classical music these days. But that might be temporary. Anyway if I do ever start posting there I'll probably go by Fontinau because I think a few people from IMDB already post there and I might as well be recognizable.

Finally, there's the new mirror forum that Jill-McBain has kindly posted about: http://imdb2.freeforums.net I'll probably keep an eye on the "music general" and "classical music" for at least a little while. I might register, or not. (In my experience these kinds of replacement forums don't last long.)

Re: Byron, you should of course do whatever is most agreeable to you, but if you would prefer to take your time, I would love to read your thoughts at greater length, even after they've closed this place. If you wanted to, I guess you could open an account at http://imdb2.freeforums.net and post them in the classical music forum there (where some of the other posters from here might see it); open an account at http://www.talkclassical.com and either post them in the "Community Forum" section or just send me a private message there; or simply email me.


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Re: Did John Williams steal half his career from a few measures by Poule

Addendum: this seems to be the OTHER most active music forum on the internet - http://rateyourmusic.com/boards/board_id=1 - and I know that a few people from IMDB music general post there. So, again, I might start posting there, or I might not, if I do, I'll use the name Fontinau.


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Re: Did John Williams steal half his career from a few measures by Poule


Although perhaps somewhat less impressive, I also found his treatment of the Andante from the 26th Concerto later in the same movement attractive, especially in the way it seems to be perfectly in place, in spite of the quite different passages which surround it.

Oh now this is interesting. When I read this, I thought: "Wait, there's another quotation?" So I listened to the movement again, and of course now that I was listening for it I recognized as being straight out of the 21st (you wrote "26th," but I'm assuming that was a typo). But the thing is, I've noticed that passage before, but all I ever thought about it was, "Wow, he really has assimilated Mozart's language - that sounds like something the old master might have written himself." Perfectly in place indeed! so perfectly, I didn't even notice it WAS a famous passage by the old master himself until you pointed it out. Well, I'M impressed.


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Re: Did John Williams steal half his career from a few measures by Poule

Oh yes, that was a typo! Thank you for correcting it! I apologize. Since I was sleepy, although I had the 21th in mind, I ended up writing the number of the “Coronation” concerto, which I mentioned in the previous sentence. That’s why I got the movements right, but mixed up the pieces’ numbers. Since that passage is one of Mozart’s most famous, I found his appropriation of it especially remarkable. It is already difficult enough to parody a great composer effectively and not sound derivative either of the artist parodied or, in the style of the parody, of one’s major closest influences. To do so when approaching a major composer’s most famous passages, however, is prone to be significantly harder. In this sense, it makes me think higher of him. I was busy with family events during the weekend, but I will try to post my impressions on Byron and reply to your other posts tonight.

Re: Did John Williams steal half his career from a few measures by Poule

All film composers steal from a wide range of sources. Watching the animated version of The Hobbit, from 1977, I noticed a tune very similar to one that later shows up in Williams's score for the 1992 film Far and Away (with Cruise and Kidman):

Hobbit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUXP8VEXWMs

Far & Away: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iv30RLaTeq0

Or do my ears deceive me? Unless both composers borrowed from the same Irish folk piece (or something similar) then I'd say Mr Williams's sources of inspiration range from the highbrow to the relatively commonplace.
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