Vertigo : Vertigo plot holes

Vertigo plot holes

Those little unexplained things that annoy you. 'Icebox talk' questions I guess Hitchcock would call them.

How did Scottie get off the ledge in the opening scene without dying? The one person near enough to have immediately rendered aid died in the process of attempting to do so. The other person was, presumably, a criminal trying to escape from Scottie. Scottie was hanging by his fingertips onto a flimsy rain gutter that was about to give way and he was incapacitated by vertigo. So what happened next?

Why wouldn't Madeleine's mother have told her about Madeleine's grandmother, Carlota, if the story was true? Presumably Madeleine's mother had been spared the "family curse" (or hereditary curse), so why would she assume that the following generation would be affected? And if she really thought a generation could be skipped with the curse still continuing in the family, wouldn't it be better for Madeleine to be forewarned? At least then she would be able to keep a closer eye on her own future children. (I know, this all assumes that people, including Madeleine's mother, act rationally.)

Why would rich and beautiful YOUNG Madeleine marry a man that much older if he wasn't independently wealthy? Sure, younger women marry older rich men all the time. But young rich women don't marry older men unless the men have something to bring to the table. Madeleine's husband married into her family's wealth. What was that all about?

Re: Vertigo plot holes

And the top question:

We're really supposed to believe that they fell that madly in love after being together just a few hours?

Re: Vertigo plot holes

"We're really supposed to believe that they fell that madly in love after being together just a few hours?"

1. Yes... the whole point is that they are hopless, lonley, desperate characters.

2. It was more like a day, not a few hours.




You, a salty water ocean wave.
Knock, me down and kiss my face.

Re: Vertigo plot holes

A day = a few hours.

Re: Vertigo plot holes

> Countryford
The question I have about that ledge scene is not only how did Scottie get down, but why does he blame himself for the police officer's death . . . If Scottie would have grabbed the Officer's hand, they both would have fallen. . . .
--------------------------------

Your question is almost a year old, but still worth addressing.

It's called Survivor Guilt - a form of PTSD - which is described as happening with folks who, for example, lived thru WWII concentration camps, veterans of wars who came home when their comrades did not, et. al. They ask the (often unanswerable) question, "Why did so-and-so have to die?" quickly followed by, "Why am I still here?"
It does not have to make logical sense to anyone who has not been traumatized in this particular way.

In Scottie's case, his Survivor Guilt is underscored by his relationship with his partner - at least a working relationship, and probably also a friendship - which adds another dimension (grief), over and above witnessing the death of someone unknown to you.

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eolloe says > We're really supposed to believe that they fell that madly in love after being together just a few hours?
I didn't have an issue with how quickly they supposedly fell in love. Though it's never happened to me, I have heard of people falling in love that quickly.

There are certain factors that tend to bring people closer faster. For instance, having shared a highly emotional experience might do the trick. Scottie witnessed Madeleine's suicide attempt then risked his own life to save her from drowning.

Also, having been in law enforcement he probably had a rescue persona. Madeleine was in danger and in need of a savior. People who are into rescuing others tend to be drawn to people who are helpless and in need of being rescued.

For Madeleine, Scottie would have been a refreshing alternative. She was involved with a man who was using her to murder his wife. Scottie was a good person who seemed to genuinely care for her. He was protective and kind. What's not to love?


Woman, man! That's the way it should be Tarzan. [Tarzan and his mate]

Re: Vertigo plot holes

The question I have about that ledge scene is not only how did Scottie get down, but why does he blame himself for the police officer's death. Scottie was hanging there on the side, by the gutter. The Police Officer, who is on the roof, is attempting to help Scottie up, by lending a helping hand, if you will. In the end, the Police Officer ends up falling. If Scottie would have grabbed the Officer's hand, they both would have fallen. Even if Scottie would have grabbed the Officer's hand and then the Officer fell. Scottie may be able to hold him for a little bit, but with that alrady flimsy gutter, the gutter would have given way and both would be falling to their death.

Re: Vertigo plot holes

Good question. I think Scottie felt that if he had not been incapacitated by acrophobia, he would have been able to quickly grab the officer's hand while the officer still had a good grip on the roof and was still strong enough, presumably, to pull them both to safety. You're right, though, that it doesn't seem very likely that that would have been the case.

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Nice comments everyone, I gave up on the logic of the plot a while ago, it is totally absurd, and just a vehicle to show how malice and perversity lurk just below the surface in so called "normal people". Up front, Scotty Ferguson & Gavin Elster seem like normal, rational men, but underneath both have a dark side. Elster is an evil, selfish, conniving man planning to murder his wife for her money, after marrying her just for the money in the first place. Scotty is a sad, lonely bachelor with emotional problems, unable to have normal relationship with a woman, and things are only worse because of his vertigo. Hitchcock loved to show how evil and perversity lurked just below the surface in many people.
"Dial M for Murder" hd a similar theme: two old college friends meet again, and a murder plan is unwittingly hatched, except the participants conspire openly. In Vertigo, Scotty is the unnwilling, unknowing dupe/fall guy. Might have more...

RSGRE

Re: Vertigo plot holes


Countryford says > The question I have about that ledge scene is not only how did Scottie get down, but why does he blame himself for the police officer's death.
The officer was in hot pursuit of the suspect. He easily cleared the jump from one building to the other. The only reason he went back was to help Scottie who had not been so lucky. That would be a good reason to feel responsible for the officer's death. In other words, but for Scottie he wouldn't have been there.

I don't think Scottie's hesitation or failure to grab the officer's hand aided in his death. As you said, they may have both died. Scottie was not in the position to help himself so he wouldn't have been able to do anything for anyone else. And, once the officer slipped and started falling, the weight of his body and the force of his downward movement would have pulled Scottie down with him.


Woman, man! That's the way it should be Tarzan. [Tarzan and his mate]

Re: Vertigo plot holes

"Why wouldn't Madeleine's mother have told her about Madeleine's grandmother, Carlota, if the story was true? Presumably Madeleine's mother had been spared the "family curse" (or hereditary curse), so why would she assume that the following generation would be affected? And if she really thought a generation could be skipped with the curse still continuing in the family, wouldn't it be better for Madeleine to be forewarned? At least then she would be able to keep a closer eye on her own future children. (I know, this all assumes that people, including Madeleine's mother, act rationally.)"

For all we know, the real Madeleine's mother may have told her about the family history involving Carlotta. Elster tells Scottie that Madeleine's mother was afraid to tell her about this but that may just been part of Elster's overall scheme.


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I think it's strongly implied that almost everything we think we "know" about Madeleine and her character are just lies and fantasies Elster made up. The real Madeleine was probably not as attractive or you as Judy, and Judy outright states in her letter that most of the legend of Carlotta was made up and planted by Elster to rick Scottie.


...When they found her, she was still smiling.

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Why would rich and beautiful YOUNG Madeleine marry a man that much older if he wasn't independently wealthy?
====================
Maybe because she was in love? That's the usual reason. Whereas he married her for the money.

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We don't know how young Madeleine was. Maybe she had extensive plastic surgery or face lifts.

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We don't know how young Madeleine was. Maybe she had extensive plastic surgery or face lifts.
You must be really young and not know much about plastic surgery.
Someone who has had plastic surgery, including face lifts, still looks 'old'. They might not look quite as 'bad' as they looked before the procedure, but it ain't gonna change someone who looks 40 or 50 into someone who looks 25. Sorry.

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"How did Scottie get off the ledge in the opening scene without dying?"

I've seen this asked before. It's a fair question, but it's not one that came to me during the movie nor is it one I care about. I think it's easy enough to assume that someone got help in time to save him, like firemen arriving within 5 minutes or something.

"Why wouldn't Madeleine's mother have told her about Madeleine's grandmother, Carlota, if the story was true?"

My interpretation: because her mother worried that if Madeleine knew about her grandmother that she might get similar ideas of her own and only live to 26 as well.

Your third question isn't really a plot hole, moreso just a quirk about Novak's character (who is clearly mentally unstable to begin with, to go along with the murder plot in the name of love).

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Madeleine's mother is dead, and Scottie never met the real Madeleine, so the husband could have made anything up about Madeleine and what her mother told her or didn't tell her. For all we know, Madeline could have told Carlota about the husband herself. And of course Judy, as Madeline, would play ignorant to the whole thing and just talk about dreams and blackouts.

Re: Vertigo plot holes

Plot holes?

Who we are is not important. What matters is our plan.

Re: Vertigo plot holes

1) Showing him making it out of there would have ruined our understanding of his fear. We don't know, he could have hanged there for hours before getting saved. Not showing us made it much more terrifying. But it's easy to assume the people who found the other cop's dead body looked up, saw him and got help.

2) It was probably a load of BS. She was her great grandmother and the rest was made up to fit the cause.

3) 1950's, not much else to say. This happens in Dial M For Murder too.

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How did Scottie get off the ledge in the opening scene without dying? The one person near enough to have immediately rendered aid died in the process of attempting to do so. The other person was, presumably, a criminal trying to escape from Scottie. Scottie was hanging by his fingertips onto a flimsy rain gutter that was about to give way and he was incapacitated by vertigo. So what happened next?
He fell. Since he survived, he probably landed on something soft (such as the policeman's body). Another reason he's more fortunate than the policeman is because he didn't nose-dive (i.e. plunged head-first), so his legs could break the fall a bit.

Pursuing the criminal, making a risky jump, not being able to keep up with the pursuit and holding onto the breaking rain gutter instead of accepting offered help could be seen as metaphorical foreshadowing of what happens later in the movie, when he pursues a woman, becomes obsessed with her, and can't let the thought of her go, in spite of advice from people to forget her; which causes him to take a mental plunge.

______
Joe Satriani - "Always With Me, Always With You"
http://youtu.be/VI57QHL6ge0

Re: Vertigo plot holes

Those aren't plot holes.


"I don't need to believe it's real. I just need to believe it."

Re: Vertigo plot holes

OP: you call those plot holes? Please.

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First of all that whole story of Madeleines family was made up as part of setting up Madeleines murder as a suicide.

Second of all: back then it was normal for beautiful young women to fall in love with men more than twice their age. At least in every Hitchcock movie ever made (Except Psycho) Also it was probably also a factor that there were not very many young male actors around at that time. Except for James Dean, Marlon Brando and Elvis Pressley. Neither would have been good enough (I'm guessing) for Hitchcocks movies as he preferred well established actors and it was probably also a studio demand to attract an audience.

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This movie has a lot of plotholes but none of what you mention are actual plotholes.

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Here's another plot "hole" that just struck me last night. Midge knew about Scottie's relationship with "Madeleine" by following him but how did she know about the Carlotta painting in order to produce her mock reproduction?

Re: Vertigo plot holes

didn't he tell her about it

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MikeLeighFan says > Midge knew about Scottie's relationship with "Madeleine" by following him but how did she know about the Carlotta painting in order to produce her mock reproduction?
I don't know why you and the OP are calling these plot holes. These fall under the category of questions viewers may have while watching the movie while plot holes are issues that interfere with the logic telling of the story.

To answer your question, Midge was with Scottie when Pop Leibel was telling them about the Carlota legend. She later begged Scottie to tell her why he was so interested. On the ride home he apparently filled her in and as she's exiting the car she tells him she plans of going to take a look at the portrait. The portrait was also in a book Scottie had with him in the car.

By the way, I didn't get the impression Midge had been following Scottie. When she saw Madeleine leaving his house she appeared to be arriving and about to pull into a parking space. When she saw Scottie stepping out after Madeleine, Midge thought, 'good for him' and decided to keep going. It doesn't make sense that she would have been following him because he had presumably been home for some time. He brought Madeleine home, changed her clothes and put her to bed. She seemed to have been sleeping a while before waking up.

Also, Midge and Scottie were such good friends we can assume if she'd seen him carrying an unconscious soaking wet woman out of his car and into his house she would have offered assistance or at least inquired about what was going on.


Woman, man! That's the way it should be Tarzan. [Tarzan and his mate

Re: Vertigo plot holes


eolloe says > Those little unexplained things that annoy you.
I wouldn't call these plot holes but I do have a couple of answers:

1. I don't think we needed to see Scottie's rescue. We know he made it down somehow. He was apparently injured and it sounded like that was the moment at which he developed or realized he had vertigo. Otherwise, it's doubtful he would have even attempted the leap. Remember, what he had was not necessarily a fear of heights; it was a feeling of dizziness, disorientation, and fear of falling when he looked down from a high location.

2. Though the Carlota story was based in truth; we can assume that everything Elster told Scottie was for the purpose of setting him up. It doesn't make sense to discuss what Madeleine's mother may or may not have told her. However, since you're wondering about it, I can understand why someone may not tell their child about something like that. The power of suggestion might lead someone to take their own life if they really believed they were somehow cursed and doomed to follow in their ancestor's footsteps. It's similar to people not telling their family member that they're dying if they suspect it will interfere with them actually living what's left of their lives.

3. Younger women, rich, beautiful or not, may seek an older husband if they have 'daddy issues'. That could mean they lost their father at an early age; never knew him; or didn't feel particularly close to him even if he was in their lives. In the case of someone with wealth and/or a family business, the woman may seek an established man who can step in and take over. That was especially true in the days when this movie was made. Women were typically not involved in running businesses.

Was it realistic? Just the other day I happened to see a documentary on Gloria Vanderbilt. She was the 'poor little rich girl' heiress who, in her early twenties, married her second husband, the conductor Stokowski. He was more than forty years her senior. She said it was love but she also saw him as a father figure. Her father had died when she was still a baby. I guess it really does happen.


Woman, man! That's the way it should be Tarzan. [Tarzan and his mate]

Re: Vertigo plot holes

I wouldn't call those "plot holes" but here's a question. How was Scotty able to walk up the huge staircase at the hotel (Carlotta's old house) and then look out the third-story window to the street below without feeling even a tinge of vertigo? How was he later able to look out the window of Judy's hotel room when he was wiating for her to return from the hairdresser and not feel vertigo? It almost seemed as if his vertigo was only active when necessary for the plot. Otherwise, it was forgotten.
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