Midway : The obsolete TBD Devastator torpedo aircraft

Re: The obsolete TBD Devastator torpedo aircraft


but the massacre of the squadron meant that the Japanese CAP was drawn out of position

Actually that's one of many perpetuated myths surrounding Midway.

Much of the rest of your statement is contributing factors... true. but the idea that the Zeroes were drawn down to sea level going after the torpedo bombers when the Diver bombers arrived and the Zeroes could not get back in position is false.

The time between attacks, and the Zeroes extreme rate of climb meant they could have easily been back in position.

Japanese fighter coordination however was severely lacking once the battle was joined and many milled about aimlessly looking for more targets rather than moving back to an advantageous high CAP position.


MYTHS of MIDWAY
1) The Japanese were within moments of launching their own strike when the American Diver Bombers arrived overhead.

2) The Americans triumphed against overwhelming odds at the Battle of Midway.

3) The Aleutians Operation was conceived by Admiral Yamamoto, the commander in chief of Combined Fleet, as a diversion designed to lure the American fleet out of Pearl Harbor.

4) During the transit to Midway, Admiral Yamamoto withheld important intelligence information from Admiral Nagumo, the operational commander of the carrier striking force. As a result, Nagumo was in the dark concerning the nature of the threat facing him.

5) Had the Japanese implemented a two-phase reconnaissance search on the morning of 4 June, they would have succeeded in locating the American fleet in time to win the battle.

6) The late launch of cruiser Tone's No. 4 scout plane doomed Admiral Nagumo to defeat in the battle.

7) Had Admiral Nagumo not decided to rearm his aircraft with land-attack weapons, he would have been in a position to attack the Americans as soon as they were discovered.

8) The sacrifice of USS Hornet's Torpedo Squadron Eight was not in vain, since it pulled the Japanese combat air patrol fighters down to sea level, thereby allowing the American dive-bombers to attack at 1020.

9) Japan's elite carrier aviators were all but wiped out during the battle.


All of these are fallacious. All are either untrue, or at least require careful clarification. Some of these ideas have been implanted in the Western accounts as a result of misunderstandings of the records of the battle. Some have resulted from a faulty understanding of the basic mechanics of how the battle was fought. Some are misrepresentations of the truth that were deliberately introduced by participants in the battle.


I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water!

Re: The obsolete TBD Devastator torpedo aircraft

I never said "down to sea level" - just that the CAP was drawn away. I am glad that you brought up the myths, though - too many people seem to believe these lies (and, sadly, they are still a minority - I would say that most people don't even really know much about the battle other than "America wins, Japan loses"). None of the textbooks I had in school ever mentioned any of these myths - in fact, they barely mentioned Midway at all. Maybe it's for the best, though - at least people aren't learning lies.

Re: The obsolete TBD Devastator torpedo aircraft


Maybe it's for the best, though - at least people aren't learning lies.


hoooo boy.
You're in for a rude awakening.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/63358607@N00/14198695495/

https://www.ijreview.com/2013/09/79895-high-school-textbook-rewrite-co nstitution-take-away-individual-right-bear-arms/


And now we have "Common Core" which is literally destroying education and the minds of our kids as we speak.
http://youtu.be/wZEGijN_8R0
http://youtu.be/rDJTJTAXx7k
http://youtu.be/4OPpbQWg9X8
http://youtu.be/1x2ZyXWHeMw



I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water!

Re: The obsolete TBD Devastator torpedo aircraft

Let's not bring politics into this; let's just agree that whoever wrote that is an idiot (or, at the least, very confused).

Re: The obsolete TBD Devastator torpedo aircraft

At least they aren't teaching Birth of a Nation as an accurate representation of the Civil War and Reconstruction.

Re: The obsolete TBD Devastator torpedo aircraft


but the idea that the Zeroes were drawn down to sea level going after the torpedo bombers when the Dive bombers arrived and the Zeroes could not get back in position is false.
While this correct for VT-8's and VT-6's attacks, the Zeroes on CAP WERE drawn to the torpedo attack of VT-3 with the accompanying detachment of 6 Wildcats of VF-3 lead by Lt. Cmdr. Thach. Like you had stated, the lack of centralized fighter control caused ALL the CAP to attack the only perceived threat of VT-3/VF-6's attack on the Hiryu. Because Lt. Cmdr. Leslie moved around to the northeast of the Kido Butai formation with his VB-3, the Zeroes on patrol missed them since they were now not on the same threat vector as the rest of Yorktown's strike group. He was getting into a better position to attack the Soryu from a dive bombing perspective.

The Enterprise dive bombers were even farther away coming up from the southwest. This unintended simultaneous attack from three different directions was the last straw to break the effectiveness of the Japanese CAP protection. To me, this fortuitous timing should be considered the "Miracle at Midway" and not the entire battle in my view.

As Jon Parshall has discussed in many presentations that are available on Youtube (see below for one,) the real contributions of VT-8 and VT-6 were the continuation of the attacks on Kido Butai by groups of US planes that was started by Midway's airgroup. This caused the Japanese to never have enough time to spot a strike against the US carriers even if all their planes were armed for an anti-ship strike.
Youtube video (1 of 3):http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUdprgaCQOU

Redhooks

"You don't get something for nothing, you don't get freedom for free." Neil Peart

Re: The obsolete TBD Devastator torpedo aircraft


...the real contributions of VT-8 and VT-6 were the continuation of the attacks on Kido Butai by groups of US planes that was started by Midway's airgroup.


BINGO!
The continuous waves of attacks, which the torpedo squadrons were a extension of... kept the Japanese CAP busy. This is what helps prove Fuchida's lies to be lies in regards to the Japanese strike being within 5 minutes of launching when the dive bombers showed up.

The strike was still below in the hangar as the flight decks were in constant use recovering, refueling and relaunching the CAP. As such, they were 45 to 1 1/2 hours from launch at best.


Awesome Video, thanks.

I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water!

Re: The obsolete TBD Devastator torpedo aircraft

Very interesting video. I've d/l'ed it to watch a second time later.

Thanks!

Re: The obsolete TBD Devastator torpedo aircraft

Did you watch the other 2 parts to the presentation?

There are a few other interesting YouTube videos with Parshall in them. The best is a talk with the editor of an alternate history book that includes three contributing authors. One is Parshall and another is John Lundstrom who wrote the excellent 2 book series (The First Team) on the first year of Navy fighter squadrons with some addition detail on the Bombing, Scouting, and Torpedo squadrons in the Pacific.

One of the topics of the discussion is the Battle of Midway.

Redhooks

Edit: Link to video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWeKC-xNNQU

"You don't get something for nothing, you don't get freedom for free." Neil Peart

Re: The obsolete TBD Devastator torpedo aircraft

There is also Lundstrom's The First South Pacific Campaign, out of print but can be found used, and Black Shoe Carrier Admiral, both good reads for enthusiasts of US carrier warfare in 1942.

Live long and prosper.

Re: The obsolete TBD Devastator torpedo aircraft



Redhooks

Did you watch the other 2 parts to the presentation?

There are a few other interesting YouTube videos with Parshall in them. The best is a talk with the editor of an alternate history book
Yeah I downloaded and watched all 3 parts.

I'll check out that second recommendation later. Thanks.

Re: The obsolete TBD Devastator torpedo aircraft


The time between attacks, and the Zeroes extreme rate of climb meant they could have easily been back in position.


TOTALLY OT but your comments reminded me of a factoid from Bruce Gamble's book in the Black Sheep Squadron; during a mission in the Solomons, a flight of Corsairs spotted Zeros at their level & they turned & climbed for altitude into the sun. Even though the Corsairs had 2000+ horsepower in their engines, the Zeros got to altitude first because even though they had much smaller engines, they were much lighter & could climb much faster (and I DIDN'T know that!); anyway, long story short the Corsairs got shot up & at least one pilot was shot down & lost.





Why can't you wretched prey creatures understand that the Universe doesn't owe you anything!?

Re: The obsolete TBD Devastator torpedo aircraft

The Zero had a rate of climb of 3,100 ft/min
The Corsair had a 2,800 ft/min rate of climb.

Though later model Corsairs had over 3,800 ft/min


I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water!

Re: The obsolete TBD Devastator torpedo aircraft

Thanks; I actually thought (Until Gamble mentioned it) that the F4U's engine horsepower would make the difference;

Edit: I don't recall what Zero unit was involved; if it was the Famed Tainan Kokutai you sure don't to give THOSE guys an altitude advantage.

And speaking of the Tainan Kokutai, check out this new book:

http://www.tainanbooks.com/


Gonna get this on my Christmas wish list.






Why can't you wretched prey creatures understand that the Universe doesn't owe you anything!?

Re: The obsolete TBD Devastator torpedo aircraft


The Americans triumphed against overwhelming odds at the Battle of Midway.


The Aleutians Operation was conceived by Admiral Yamamoto, the commander in chief of Combined Fleet, as a diversion designed to lure the American fleet out of Pearl Harbor.


The absolute truth. 100%


Japan's elite carrier aviators were all but wiped out during the battle.


A great deal were. Most of the rest died during the Guadalcanal campaign.

Re: The obsolete TBD Devastator torpedo aircraft


The absolute truth. 100%


No... These are Myths concerning Midway. In otherwords... NOT true.


The Americans triumphed against overwhelming odds at the Battle of Midway.

The Odds were pretty much Even.

Japan had 4 carriers
USA had 3 carriers plus an Island base that was in effect, an unsinkable 4th carrier.

Japan had 2 battleships and 3 cruisers.
USA had 8 Cruisers

Japan had 12 destroyers.
USA had 15 Destroyers.

Japan had 248 Carrier Aircraft.
USA had 233 Carrier Aircraft plus an additional 127 Land based aircraft.


When people refer to the Japan's "overwhelming Force" they are being disingenuous and also considering the Main Body which was several hundred miles BEHIND the Carrier force and thus was completely out of the picture and had no participatory affect on the battle at all.

This would also include 2 more light carriers, 5 battleships, 6 cruisers and another 35 support vessels.

But as they had no participation in the battle, how can they be considered as far as force vs force?

If anything... the Americans actually had a slight advantage, far from the "overwhelming odds"


The Aleutians Operation was conceived by Admiral Yamamoto, the commander in chief of Combined Fleet, as a diversion designed to lure the American fleet out of Pearl Harbor.

And this too is wrong. The Aleutian Operation was NOT a diversion. It was it's own operation, strategically timed with the Midway operation to take advantage of US forces being occupied elsewhere. It was not simply a diversion.

TWO Simultaneous Operations
Not one Operation and a diversion.



Japan's elite carrier aviators were all but wiped out during the battle.



A great deal were. Most of the rest died during the Guadalcanal campaign.

No, A great deal were not.
Less than a quarter of the pilots of Kido Butai at Midway were lost.
It was the attritional battles of the Solomon Islands that wore down the Pilot Corps.

Where the US rotated senior, experienced pilots back stateside to act as instructors to new pilots.... Japan kept their pilots on the front lines until they won or were killed.
Thus Japan squandered and lost the experience of these men and new recruits were poorly trained.


I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water!

Re: The obsolete TBD Devastator torpedo aircraft

Those are among several myths regarding Midway. The most historically significant myths, IMO, concern the timing of Tone's #4 Jake scout plane and the claim that Nagumo had a strike ready on the flight decks when US dive bombers hit three of his carriers.

As you know, but many do not, these myths repeated in many previously standard histories (e.g. Walter Lord's Incredible Victory) have been pretty much debunked by Jon Parshall and Tony Tully in their excellent book "Shattered Sword". This is easily the most detailed account of the battle.

Live long and prosper.

Re: The obsolete TBD Devastator torpedo aircraft

LOL... you should scroll up.
The post he was responding to, to which I answered, was on my post concerning Shattered Sword and listed out the many myths.


I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water!

Re: The obsolete TBD Devastator torpedo aircraft

No sorry. That was a 100% accurate reply.

And a Quarter is a great deal.

And the Aleutians Operation assuredly was a Diversion. Historical Fact.

You're wrong about the numbers. And being disingenuous yourself. The Japanese had an overwhelming superiority in everything but Carriers.

Re: The obsolete TBD Devastator torpedo aircraft

Declaring it so does not make it so. Yes, some classic histories of Midway described the Aleutians operation as a diversion. But more recent histories have investigated the Japanese side of this, and found it to merely be a simultaneous attack, with no intent of diversion. So it was not planned as a diversion, nor did it serve as much of one, although the US invested a powerful cruiser force up there at the time.

Shattered Sword is the most detailed history available on the battle. If you have not read this book, then you are unarmed for a debate on this battle.

What constitutes overwhelming force is a matter of opinion, not fact. But this battle was fought mainly by aircraft, with a secondary role by submarines. Surface ships never came within sight of their enemy counterparts, nor within sight of Midway. The fact is the Americans outnumbered the Japanese in aircraft and submarines, the two resources that mattered in this battle. The Japanese had qualitative advantages in those areas at the time, especially in aircraft pilots and all types of torpedoes, but were themselves outnumbered in those most relevant categories and were sailing into an ambush.

The US could have won this battle in numerous ways. Given the Japanese invasion force was very probably too weak to actually take Midway, one way to win was to simply not send the fleet at all, and let the Japanese fail in their amphibious assault, much as they did in their first attempt at Wake Island. Midway was a much, much tougher nut than Wake, given the much larger defending forces and the reef almost completely surrounding the island, limiting the invasion approaches to one specific direction.

Sending the fleet increased the stakes considerably. The gamble paid off in a way that was very costly in US aircraft and aircrews, but paid off in no small part due to inferior Japanese carrier design and damage control. It was almost impossible to fight fires in the hangars of those four carriers, especially when the CO2 systems were so fragile and easily disabled by bomb damage.



Live long and prosper.

Re: The obsolete TBD Devastator torpedo aircraft


I believe the Mark 13s carried by TBFs and B-26s at Midway had the larger warheads, 600 pounds of TNT, instead of the old 401-pound TNT warhead on the Marks carried by the TBD. It may have had a higher launch speed, too, although my sources vary. Hard to imagine the B-26 slowing to 110 knots to properly launch a Mark 13.
This is a late reply but, I just read an account by Albert Earnest who piloted the only TBF to make it back to Midway. In his story about the months leading up to Midway, he states that while performing practice torpedo runs out of NAS Quonset Point, RI, in early May 1942, the drop speed for the Mark 13 was increased from 80 to 125 knots with the addition of plywood fairings on the nose and tail fins that would break off when the torpedo hit the water. After getting to Midway, he was informed that the maximum dropping speed and height for the Mark 13 torpedo was increased again to 200 knots and 200 feet respectively. This was probably good news for the B-26 crews too.

The whole story can be found at :http://www.midway42.org/ShowPDF.aspx?Page=Midway_AAR/tbf-detach.pdf

Redhooks

"You don't get something for nothing, you don't get freedom for free." Neil Peart

Re: The obsolete TBD Devastator torpedo aircraft

That's one of the things I love about these forums....
Quite often that can be a treasure trove of data-mining.

Thanks for the link.

I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water!

Re: The obsolete TBD Devastator torpedo aircraft

Indeed; while most of my reading material is 'Luftwaffe-centric', I got a pretty varied library--and frankly this is the first time I ever read the experiences of the lone TBF survivor of Midway.




Why can't you wretched prey creatures understand that the Universe doesn't owe you anything!?

Re: The obsolete TBD Devastator torpedo aircraft

Clearly they should have replaced the TBD with the best torpedo bomber of the war - the Fairey Swordfish.

The Swordfish?

Really, I have to believe you are kidding.

No doubt, the Swordfish accomplished a great deal in those actions in which it was used. That said, I don't think anyone could believe that the "Stringbag" would have been anything but canon fodder in the Pacific.

Searching my memory, I don't recall any actions in which the Swordfish had to contend with enemy fighters. Likewise, I don't believe they ever contended with effective AAA fire, either.

They were effective in providing a very stable platform from which to fire aerial torpedoes. And they were well-suited for operating in the nasty weather conditions of the Atlantic.

But if you take that same plane and put it in the middle of the battles at Coral Sea or Midway--the principal TBD battles--and they would have been shot up as badly, if not worse as the TBD's. They were painfully slow, and presented a large and extremely vulnerable target.

I credit the British for utilizing them to their maximum effect--at night and in bad weather. And I'll especially credit the Royal Navy for providing them with a reliable torpedo. But when it comes to picking out the most effective torpedo plane of the war, I don't think there is much of a contest. The Japanese "Kate" (I don't remember its proper Japanese designation) was an absolute terror during the first year of the war. I doubt that anyone, Americans and British included, was ever even in the same class with the Japanese in delivering aerial torpedo attacks, and they were particularly effective in coordinating them with dive-bombing attacks from Val dive bombers.

The American Avengers had a few good showing, but only in the most favorable of circumstances. The Kate and the torpedoes they used were in a class by themselves.

"He was running around like a rooster in a barnyard full of ducks."--Pat Novak

Re: The Swordfish?

He was kidding.

The swordfish did encounter German fighters during the famous Channel dash. It went badly, much like the TBDs fared at Midway. Probably why Dave brought it up, after all.

TBDs did not get shot up in the Coral Sea, nor in any other battle but Midway. Every combat loss of a TBD, to flak or fighters, was on a single day, 4 June 1942. Pretty remarkable fact, given the numerous prior battles and raids, including the sinking of Shoho with several torpedo hits.

I agree about Japanese pilots being the best in 1942 and the Type 91 torpedo being the best aerial torpedo of the war and easily the best of 1942. The B5N was superior to the TBD, and inferior to the TBF-1 except in range.

Live long and prosper.

Re: The Swordfish?

Very interesting that the only combat losses of the war for TBDs were during the Midway attacks. I know they were pretty successful in their attacks on the Shoho during the Coral Sea, so I had always assumed that at least a few were shot down. Thanks for passing the fact that none were lost there along.

Without doing any research I can't be sure, but off-hand, I can't think of any successful torpedo attacks by American planes during any of the six major carrier battles of the war other than at Coral Sea. Maybe there were a few at the Philippine Sea or at Leyte--I'm not positive. Even with TBFs instead of TBDs, the navy cut back the size of torpedo squadrons on carriers after Midway. I think that a good number of TBFs (and TBMs) were utilized mostly as bombers even with the reduced squadron sizes. It probably wouldn't be a stretch to say that the experience at Midway left the navy with a strong preference away from torpedo planes and toward dive bombers.

I may have mentioned it elsewhere on this board, but in my den I have a copy of the Life Magazine with George Gay on the cover hanging on the wall, and right next to it is a print of a TBD--signed by Gay. I guess I shouldn't attach any romance to that plane, but there is something about those doomed attacks at Midway that conjures up visions of the Charge of the Light Brigade. All those brave men...

Again, thanks for passing along that interesting info.


"He was running around like a rooster in a barnyard full of ducks."--Pat Novak

Re: The Swordfish?

Midway started off with an aerial torpedo hit on a Japanese tanker. That torpedo was dropped by a PBY during a night attack.

At least one torpedo hit Ryujo in the Eastern Solomons battle. I recall the capain insisted she was sunk only by torpedoes, which was not true.

I don't recall TBF's hitting any Japanese ships with torpedoes in the Santa Cruz battle, although one did hit a US destroyer (USS Porter) and sinking it. Oops.

I believe aerial torpedoes sank Hiyo in the Philippine Sea and others off Cape Egano.

Probably more, but those I recall.

Live long and prosper.

Post deleted

This message has been deleted.

Re: The Swordfish?

Wow. And I thought I was knowledgeable about this stuff.

Never-the-less, I think you would probably agree that aerial torpedo attacks took a back seat to dive bombing (waaay back) in US naval strategy after Midway.

I guess that torpedoes played a big part in sinking the two Yamato class battleships, and of course submarine launched torpedo attacks are a whole different story, but so far as air attacks go, it was dive bombing that sunk Imperial Navy ships above all else.



"He was running around like a rooster in a barnyard full of ducks."--Pat Novak

Re: The Swordfish?

I'd guess that the TBF was at least as effective as the SBD after 1943, but it would take a detailed analysis to decide for certain.

The US aerial torpedo remained the slowest in the war, but the warhead was improved, as was the ruggedness to allow geater drop speed and height.

Note: Post corrected. Now correctly says TBF, not TBD. Oops.

Live long and prosper.

Re: The Swordfish?


the navy cut back the size of torpedo squadrons on carriers after Midway.
Not so. The authorized number of planes in a squadron was 18 throughout the war. At the start, there were supposed to be one fighter squadron, one scouting squadron, one bombing squadron, and one torpedo squadron all with 18 planes each. The only instance I know of with more than 18 is the combined VT-8. That was only the case during the training of the new squadron for the Hornet where the extra pilots would then be used as replacements for losses in the already deployed VT squadrons. The reason they had more planes was the introduction of the TBF. If the TBFs had made it to Hawaii before the Hornet sailed, Lt. Cmdr. Waldron was going to have his most experienced pilots on the TBDs train 18 hour days if necessary to get qualified on the TBF. If there was only one day, then he was prepared to use the younger pilots who were already qualified on the TBF, but he would lead them no matter what.

The fighter squadrons were increased to 27 planes each sometime in May between the Battles of the Coral Sea and Midway. Then before Guadalcanal, the number was increased again to 36 planes. Sometime in 1943, the scouting and bombing squadrons were combined into one bombing squadron of 36 planes. The normal Air Group in 1943-1945 then had 36 fighters, 36 dive bombers, and 18 torpedo planes. Towards the end of the war there were changes on some carrier air groups to take away 18 dive bombers and add 18 F4U Corsairs as a fighter-bomber squadron. Thus there were 54 fighters aboard to defend against the increasing Kamikaze suicide plane attacks.

Redhooks

"You don't get something for nothing, you don't get freedom for free." Neil Peart

Re: The Swordfish?


The fighter squadrons were increased to 27 planes each sometime in May between the Battles of the Coral Sea and Midway.


That was with the arrival of the F4F-4 with folding wings.

Live long and prosper.

Re: The Swordfish?

what about photon torpedoes?

Re: The Swordfish?

Now you're talking. Forget, "The Final Countdown." Instead, treat the Japanese to a few Constitution-Class Battlecruisers. And they said battlecruisers were obsolete by World War II!


"He was running around like a rooster in a barnyard full of ducks."--Pat Novak

Re: The Swordfish?

Pretty sure that I have read that most embarked torpedo squadrons were cut from 18 to 12 planes, but then again, I know from past experience that you are usually right about this stuff.

I'll see if I can't find my source. In any case, I do recall reading that after Midway, the size of the fighter complements was raised on all carriers. Seems like you would necessarily have to trade off one plane for the other.



"He was running around like a rooster in a barnyard full of ducks."--Pat Novak

Re: The Swordfish?


Pretty sure that I have read that most embarked torpedo squadrons were cut from 18 to 12 planes
I just re-read John Lundstrom's book The First Team, and it has info that in the June/July 1942 re-organization of all the Pacific Fleet's carrier air groups the torpedo squadrons would be only 12 planes each. This was not strictly followed because the torpedo squadrons embarked on the Enterprise and the Saratoga during the opening stages of the Guadalcanal campaign had 16 planes each. Only the Wasp's torpedo squadron had a smaller amount of 10 planes in it. But the Wasp was a smaller carrier and only carried 30 each of fighters and dive bombers along with the 10 torpedo planes and one utility plane. Whereas the other two carriers carried about 90 planes each.

I do think 18 plane torpedo squadrons were the norm for the air groups on the new Essex-class carriers when they joined the fleet. The reduction to 12 plane squadrons was done due to the increase of fighters being carried aboard meant less hanger space for the Avengers. As it turned out, the carriers in practice could hold 4 or so more torpedo planes (except for the Wasp) than originally thought.

Redhooks

"You don't get something for nothing, you don't get freedom for free." Neil Peart
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