The Seventh Continent : The 'attack' on Christianity

This film was pretty good, but I think Haneke made a big mistake when he implies the family was Christian. (the prayers)
I believe the state the family was in, the nihilism, hopelesness etc. is what is caused by an atheistic worldview.

So that leaves us with two alternatives:
a) Haneke is suggesting these people are not "real" Christians, only on the outside.
b) Haneke doesn't undestand what Christianity is about.

I think it came down to the crashing reality that Christianity isn't the solution to one's questions about "meaning." If your foundation is built on weak explanations, once they're shattered, there's very little to stand on. It's akin to "deprogramming" someone who's been in a cult. It takes a long while for that person to recuperate mentally and gain a new sense of purpose.


Do The Mussolini! Headkick!

At what point in the film are the "weak explanations shattered"??
I'm a Christian and my faith gives my life a meaning, how could it not?
My point is, Haneke is tackling an issue he doesn't understand and has no experience of.

The Christian idea of "free will" is shattered when they see the automobile accident. They did not choose to be born, they did not choose to exist, they did not choose to be man/woman/girl - they don't even get to choose their time of death until all three make the only act of free will afforded to them: Suicide.


Do The Mussolini! Headkick!

that's interesting
but it's just absurd to think a Christian would react like that.
I know it's hard for a non-believer to understand.
SIN>DEATH; everyone should be dead by now, but by God's grace we are still alive. We should be thankful for every day.
Also my whole point is that for a Christian there's always hope and meaning while for a person who doesn't know God, there's nothing but hopelessness and despair ie. the family
HENCE I found this film incorrect

Whether they believed in God or not, they saw themselves as automatons. As Christians, they believe they carry out God's will in their lives but if their lives are comprised of nothing else except the same trivial events, they saw themselves as nothing more than puppets. There is nothing they can do that isn't alredy ascribed by God since God already created everything. God knows every choice they will make and every outcome from it. There is no individual purpose, except that of God. Even their suicide: God knew before these people existed that they would commit suicide and, yet, that's how everything was planned out by God, because God cannot do wrong. When God creates people, God also creates the choices that come with them - it is in their nature by design. To pray to God for events to change is futile since God created everything: past, present, and future. To pray to God to change something means trying to change God's will as if God was wrong originally and needs to make a change in the plan. The only relationship between God and humans is that of creator and creation - the same as man creates a machine to carry out their designs.

If the family is atheist and is Christian as a mere formality, they still don't have a choice in their lives. As I stated earlier, they can't choose to be man, woman, and girl; they cannot choose to stop getting old; they cannot choose to keep on living as they are for ever (even though energy cannot physically be created and destroyed); they cannot choose to go back in time and change something; they cannot choose if and when they get sick, etc. Their choices are superficial at best and very limited. They are forced by nature to carry out what they were biologically intended to do.


Do The Mussolini! Headkick!

yeah i kind of get your point

God is sovereign
Man has free will
how this works is a mystery unsolved for all of us

anyway,
the trashing of the house is one of the best scenes i've ever seen.
i've personally would've prefered that they would've moved to Australia and started from beginning then it'd would have been a metaphor for salvation & conversion like Bresson's A man escaped.

I love the overall look of the movie. The crisp and cold cinematography was a really good touch. He used the same kind of lighting and contrast for Benny's Video. It definitely helps convey the family's loss of spirit and their stoic state of mind. It's as if all those years they had been frozen. I think the dream image of the Australia tourism advertisement only serves to drive the point that even their heaven has an artificial quality which reminded me of the confession booths from Lucas's THX 1138. This is the reverse theme of finding human qualities in robots and artificial beings from movies such as BladeRunner and Solaris i.e. in the case of Haneke, humans slowly realise they are robots/objects.


Do The Mussolini! Headkick!

This isn't a religion-atheism relation, this is a demonstration of nihilism, and, knowing that, there can be no salvation, redemption, resurrection or even reincarnation, there is nothing in future because there is nothing (real) in present. Therefore they can see no other exit, physical or transcedent, except total destruction. And they don't even see it as a destruction, because nothing really exists in the world they know, or (more precise) in the way they know the world.

I agree completely with your message and as a dramatic tool, religion failed to them. As part of a script or a dramatic structure i think it's the right approch. what i find disturbing is trying to find hidden messages about or christianity based on your own interpretation due to your bigotry.when it could have been the tora or the quo'ranbut anyway Nihilism as an inspiration is always interesting to watch when is well done.
Luc

This family lives in modern central Europe where (still) lives Christian majority. Therefore it is expected that, if any, it is Christian religion which could inspire them for living if they were religious, or inspire them for dying if their religion died first. But, as well as I think that you want to say, I don't find any hint that the problem is in Christianity: if the movie took place in Calcutta, Tel Aviv or Seoul the Nihilism would be the same regardless the religion that most of people belonged to.

Ignoring the recently found (?) Judas scripts Did Judas Iscariot have free will? It was God's plan to send His son to save people, but Jesus had to be betrayed. So, from the beginning God knew this would happen, otherwise it would have no sense to send His son with such a mission. Judas was blamed for two thousand years as the biggest traitor in history. But what if he decided not to do it? He would have destroyed God's plan and we wouldn't be saved! (Now as I look this way, it looks as if he should have to be glorified as one of the most important saints.) Obviously God wouldn't risk if there was a possibility the plan would fail. So, did Judas have free will? And, do we?

If you believe in the all-powerful, all-knowing God, then all you see - good AND evil - is God's will. You cannot do anything that is not already known to God because that is how God created you - just as Judas could not make choices that would go against God's will. Everyone knows Jesus had foreknowledge that Judas would betray him doesn't that serve as part of the proof that man does not have freewill? Jesus would be denied thrice, right? Then what happened? He was denied thrice.


Do The Mussolini! Headkick!

Exactly. But, consequently, do people have then any responsibility for what they do? Even if we can't avoid legal implications of our acts, why should anyone be morally responsible? And, interesting, Christians are throughout history very ready to condemn (morally) everyon for what he/she does. But, Moslems, who say that everything is God's will, happen to have even more extreme punishments for human sins. Isn't this either misunderstanding or hipocrisy?

Back to movie I still think the family was not real Christian family at all, as I wrote in my comment - they lost not faith (having none they had nothing to lose) but their humanity, they became machines and terminated their lives with such a perfection as machines would do.

"If god is all-powerful, can he create an object too large for him himself to move..?" And so it goes

Everything you've said so far just goes to prove that the 'god' concept is nothing more than hoodoo; a grim (pardon the pun - I just had to do it! :P )fairy-tale told to ensure the oppressed stay down-at-heel. Personally, I consider it extremely regressive thinking; the late, great Bill Hicks said it best:

"You ever noticed how people who believe in Creationism look really unevolved? You ever noticed that? Eyes real close together, eyebrow ridges, big furry hands and feet. "I believe God created me in one day" Yeah, looks like He rushed it."

=]

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Looks like I picked the wrong day to quit shooting smack

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If God is all-powerful is He powerful enough to give man some responsibility? After all, man is said to be created in God's image which could include His freedom to choose. Your view of God seems a little more constrained than it needs to be.

Judas never existed and perhaps one day it will be abundantly clear that neither do we.

Nothing exists more beautifully than nothing.

I find it arrogant (a form of arrogance typical of any follower of religion), to assume that simply because someone does not believe in a god or an afterlife that their life is therefore hopeless and meaningless. Surely the belief in the afterlife promotes the idea of NOT living every day to the fullest as people will happily waste their lives working away believing they will be rewarded after death (something that has NEVER been proven and is entirely "faith" based). This belief was clearly created as a means to keep people in check and ultimately enslave them, "Yeah you work for me all your lives to make me rich and comfortable and err yeah you'll be rewarded AFTER you die" sorry it doesn't take a genius to figure that out. Really the belief in the afterlife is a belief that you will live forever because you can't handle the idea of nothingness, I'll be honest my instincts don't want nothingness but I prefer an end than living forever even if it is in "eternal bliss" because it keeps me trying to be productive and LIVE the life I KNOW I have, not live FOR the life I have been TOLD I'd have.

By not believing in an afterlife your life is given meaning, in that you enjoy the little time you have in existence, and ultimately attempt to absorb as much experience the earth has to offer while you can.
That is the issue the film is trying to raise.

I'm gonna have to print this response and frame it.


Do The Mussolini! Headkick!

Yeah, it is a good response. I'm gonna steal it. Verbatim.

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we take our horrible mutilations seriously in these parts

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Rock on, Ed.

Nothing is more beautiful than nothing.

ed-hobson
If you are reading this - this was a genius response!
Very movedseriously

mwesley thanks for that. (changed my name to lahaine84 BTW)

Do your instincts often try to deceive you? Isn't it better to have a view of the world that matches your instincts?
The belief in a deity provides a better reason to be even more productive than yours; it provides a audience for everything you do. It gives much more meaning to the full life you are living.

Just hoping for the reward of an afterlife is an irreligious motive, and religion is all about proper motives. You might have a bitter view of Christianity thinking it is all duty, but Christians are saved by grace alone, not duty. A Christian cannot earn a reward of heaven. It is only given. This frees up the follower to not 'work' for heaven and focus on living to the fullest with the only kind of audience that matters in the end.
Peace.

"This frees up the follower to not 'work' for heaven and focus on living to the fullest with the only kind of audience that matters in the end."


So in other words you enslave yourself to becoming a performer? This comes from the point of view that other people, whether real or imaginary, are there to impress. Ultimately you're not living YOUR life to the fullest you are living to provide 'the audience' with 'entertainment', and again this makes you a slave. You KNOW you're alive right now, you only have 'Faith' that there is an afterlife, why not simply take the life you KNOW you have and fulfill it with your own goals and ambition? There is no evidence of an afterlife beyond books so why even consider it?

I'm sorry but regardless of how you see your religious beliefs now, they still stem from a system of control. 'Heaven' and 'Hell' are merely a carrot and stick, reward and punishment, how else do you think governments 1000 years ago were able to keep control of so many people without policing? In fact this is still going on today even though we don't need religion anymore to keep our moral outlook.

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You KNOW you're alive right now, you only have 'Faith' that there is an afterlife, why not simply take the life you KNOW you have and fulfill it with your own goals and ambition?

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If this is so obvious, almost to the point of being a platitude, why did the family kill themselves at the end?

"If this is so obvious, almost to the point of being a platitude, why did the family kill themselves at the end? "



Because it's a movie?

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Because it's a movie?

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Most probably becuase the director is intelligent.

They killed themselves because they were misguided by their belief in there being an afterlife, that's what the 'beach' shot is all about. By believing there is an afterlife they are devaluing the life they actually have.

The dad keeps having these visions of heaven in the beach shot, yet when they kill themselves all that's left is snow and white noise from the tv, the signal is over, they are dead there is no afterlife.

There is no allusion to an afterlife in the movie.

Yea, but in the Christian dogma's framework of belief, suicides automatically go to hell.

"I find it arrogant (a form of arrogance typical of any follower of religion), to assume that simply because someone does not believe in a god or an afterlife that their life is therefore hopeless and meaningless. Surely the belief in the afterlife promotes the idea of NOT living every day to the fullest as people will happily waste their lives working away believing they will be rewarded after death (something that has NEVER been proven and is entirely "faith" based). This belief was clearly created as a means to keep people in check and ultimately enslave them, "Yeah you work for me all your lives to make me rich and comfortable and err yeah you'll be rewarded AFTER you die" sorry it doesn't take a genius to figure that out. Really the belief in the afterlife is a belief that you will live forever because you can't handle the idea of nothingness, I'll be honest my instincts don't want nothingness but I prefer an end than living forever even if it is in "eternal bliss" because it keeps me trying to be productive and LIVE the life I KNOW I have, not live FOR the life I have been TOLD I'd have.

By not believing in an afterlife your life is given meaning, in that you enjoy the little time you have in existence, and ultimately attempt to absorb as much experience the earth has to offer while you can."

Quoted For Truth.

=]

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Looks like I picked the wrong day to quit shooting smack

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No, you don't "prefer an end to living forever."

Nobody does when the time comes.

Judging from your user name, you are young. Wait till you're 80 and dying.

I think it's absurd for you to assume you know how all Christians would act at any given time.

You can think what you want about this film. Not everyone in the world has the same bloated opinions on Christianity as you. Haneke did an effective job of painting a very dark and bleak picture of the world, which it oftentimes is.

HENCE I found this film correct.

"that's interesting
but it's just absurd to think a Christian would react like that."

I hate to break it to you, but Christians do react like that. As a therapist I see those reactions often. I don't mean that they necessarily feel that way for the rest of their lives, but they may go through this crisis of faith for years after a traumatic event before they rebuild their faith.

it's bad form to end a sentence with a preposition.

__________
Last movie watched: Code Unknown (7/10)

"I'm a Christian and my faith gives my life a meaning[]"

which is _exactly_ why you've posted this offal, including the passive-aggressive title you've chosen for this thread.

Just because _your_ beliefs give you succour, what makes you believe that this is necessarily universal? _Many_ men of the cloth lose their faith; Xtians commit suicide every day; 'meaning' can be found & lost in the blink of an eye.

I'm happy for you that your life is so fulfilled, but never be so closed-minded as to think that the fairy stories peddled under the banner of 'religion' are a permanent solution for everybody

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Looks like I picked the wrong day to quit shooting smack

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"I'm a Christian and my faith gives my life a meaning[]"

which is _exactly_ why you've posted this offal, including the passive-aggressive title you've chosen for this thread.

Just because _your_ beliefs give you succour, what makes you believe that this is necessarily universal? _Many_ men of the cloth lose their faith; Xtians commit suicide every day; 'meaning' can be found & lost in the blink of an eye.

I'm happy for you that your life is so fulfilled, but never be so closed-minded as to think that the fairy stories peddled under the banner of 'religion' are a permanent solution for everybody

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My best friend was a born again Christian. Very true believer and he killed himself 5 years ago.

the film is based on a real family; were the real-life people christian?

I don't belong here

The family was not implicitly atheist. Atheism is a lack of belief. The only thing made clear in the picture regarding atheism/theism was the family's consent to the stereotypical middle-class religion, a religion devoid of any real commitment, a reaction to their need to seem normal and secure. There was never a denial of this religion, nor was there an acceptance of it in the film. The only reason they pray is because they think they should. You should be very careful when making such brash and nieve statements such as your claim of their hopelessness, etc being caused by atheism. Clearly you are still deluded about some sort of unprovable deity, whether it be Zeus, Jesus, or Muhammed. To counter your point, 97% of scientists with PhD's are atheist or agnostic, as compared to 80% of the United States being Christian. Now, the rate of suicide I assure you is much lower among the population of scientists percentage-wise as compared to the latter described, do you disagree? Also, the average IQ among scientists of this caliber is in the range of 20-40 points higher (on average!) than the average American, whose IQ averages 100. As a side point, those average American's like to deny science with the wave of a hand, whilst not understanding the least in such basic ideas as the Big Bang, or the Boeing 747 theory (reposed by Sir Richard Dawkins, a logical and undeniable counter to the proposed existence of a deity.) I do not wish to offend you, but to lend you a more neutral view of the subject. It does take mental effort to become learned in these matters, and it is unfortunate that so many kind and confused humans lack the mental horsepower to comprehend them. By the way, it was a great film!!!!

"The only thing made clear in the picture regarding atheism/theism was the family's consent to the stereotypical middle-class religion, a religion devoid of any real commitment, a reaction to their need to seem normal and secure. There was never a denial of this religion, nor was there an acceptance of it in the film. The only reason they pray is because they think they should. "

Very good point sir!


ps. I personally doubt 80% of americans are true born-again Christians.
I.E. many americans who think they're Christians are not. but who am i to say
going to church every sunday doesn't make you a christian

Yes, but, ultimately, they do believe in the God of The Holy Bible whether they adhere to its tenets or not.


Do The Mussolini! Headkick!

and no the little girl did not have a choice. She did NOT know or could not understand what was going to happen. Remember what happens when she sees the fish?

Indeed. At that age, even several years older children do not understand the basic idea of death, especially it's irreversibility, being final. I ma afraid that today kids might have more problems to understand it, and the age for mature concept of death will be prolonged because of PC games where every player has potentially endless number of lives. That's also why crimes done by young kids often become very cruel.

No to be a 'true' Christian you must dedicate you're entire life to something entirely unprovable, that lacks ANY REAL hard evidence whatsoever, something that gives other people power, takes away a majority of your freedoms and ultimately enslaves you. Otherwise you'd be a sinneryeah?

The original poster has seemed to have disappeared, maybe he's realized how childish and futile religion is, and is too ashamed to respond to all the brilliant retorts posted in the oppose.

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It is a fearful thing to love what death can touch.

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"It's better to have loved and lost than never had loved at all." But it can never be transfered to religion and faith: one can build his world without God, but if you have faith as your base and you lose it, everything can lose sense. So, I agree, atheism can't be an excuse for such act.

However, most University professors and other scientists I know are far from being atheists, even when (some of them) do not practice going to church every Sunday. And many of those average "official" Christians are far from having real faith in their hearts, souls and lives.

I think Haneke understands better than you do.

Children of Men didn't have a monkey-cam.

Nah, hopelessnes and atheism does not belong together. Well, except the fact that we feel kinda sorry for you fundamentalists out there, in some regard you are hopeless, so i guess you're kinda right.

I didn't bother trying to make a logical statement to you, since your brain is slightly damaged. Am I going to hell now? Or will my backyard be filled with frogs?

Clown.