Kirk Cameron : Ray Comfort says the Bible is science and evolution theory isn't

---

I waited for years for God to communicate with me but he never did.

---

That's because all you did was wait. You didn't prepare yourself as I have said.

---

Then why do people endless analyse and try to interpret its oblique passages?

---

It really has none. Any endless analysis and interpretation is done without mentoring and with self-imposed barriers in place or evil attempts to twist scripture to suit the reader.

I'll show you that the passage you quoted is not "clear as mud"

---

E.g., John 3:3-8:

***
Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."
"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"
Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

---

Your first stumbling block should be the "water and the spirit" line. Water could refer to when a pregnant woman's "water breaks" or to baptism with water. The Spirit refers more to the second birth Jesus speaks of. It's a spiritual rebirth by God's Spirit connecting to and working with your spirit.

---

Flesh gives birth to flesh,

---

This could refer to a mother having a baby, but "flesh" is also used in the Bible to refer to one's sinful nature. A sinful nature can only produce more of a sinful nature and brings out the sinful nature in others.

---

but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

---

Again referring to spiritual rebirth and how God's spirit makes a new creation of you and your spirit.

---

You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'

---

Self-explanitory.

---

The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
***

---

I believe he's speaking here to observations and attempts to figure believers out by outsiders such as you. You don't understand what we mean by anything, why we do anything, etc., if our religion is involved. You may come to your own incorrect conclusions and accept them as the true answer, but that doesn't mean you can tell anything about us.

---

That's as clear as mud.

---

Now it should be clear as crystal.

---

If it was so clear all along, why would we need all these mentors and pastors?

---

Because it's clear to them and other experienced believers. You have just shown your need for one if you want to become spiritually born. You are so consumed with outsider thinking and read so much garbage in articles and books by outsiders. When you are ready to abandon all that and do so, you will be well on your way to be ready to become born again. Leave all the atheist material for others who insist on looking it up and wallowing in it and never look on any of it again. It's only holding you back from God's truth,

---

Shouldn't the doctrine be simple enough that even the most facile halfwit would understand it?

---

Shouldn't you paint a bunch of pictures on your car? Shouldn't you acid wash or tie dye all your clothes? Shouldn't you eat what you don't like to eat? You take care of your own business and God will take care of his. God wants people to learn and grow in their faith and spirituality, and that won't happen if the Bible just reads like a set of directions, as in a recipe or a workplace handbook.

---

People over the world, who have had similar feelings, have variously named the source as Allah, Vishnu, Perkunas, and any number of alternate options.

---

No, they don't. You won't understand until you take steps to, as I have said.

---

Pot and kettle.

---

No, it isn't. That can't be said to me or believers by a chronic outsider of all walks of life because they have to experience it for themselves. They never will if they keep their self-imposed barriers up.

---

They often believe in Allah, Vishnu, or whomever, because of which culture they were born in - nurture rather than nature, or environment rather than heredity. In the 19th century, American lawyer Robert Ingersoll wrote: Most of the intelligent men in Turkey are followers of Mahomet. They were rocked in the cradle of the Koran, they received their religious opinions as they did their features from their parents. The same may be said of the Christians of our country. Their belief is the result, not of thought, of investigation, but of surroundings.

---

Christianity is the only reli2000gion God is close to. The others are meaningless to him because they are not about him. God moves and speaks for Christians and prospective Christians who give him a chance. That's all it is. And it happens all over the world. There are Christians all over the world.

---

-
This still seems to me to be circular logic. It basically says that the Bible proves it is true because its author says he only tells the truth.

---

The Bible proves to be true because it's author moves and speaks to/for people and enriches their lives.

---

And churches have *never* been given huge amounts of money, right?

---

So what? Church money, if the church operates correctly and honestly, is all for God. The snake oil salesmen's money is all for them.

---

Some researchers claim that God and Allah are one, or close enough to make no difference, similar to the barely-there difference between Zeus and Jupiter. People of all religions have said something like "I embrace the true doctrine because I've seen what it does for others" and "I've felt the power of his Spirit move as miracles have been done and people are praising God" and applied these statements to all imaginable deities, so Christianity cannot claim to be unique in this matter.

---

Yes, just sit there as an outsider for the rest of your life, being nothing but critical and skeptical. That's the way to understand everything in life. That's the way you approached driving, working and voting, right? Even with eating something new to you. Just stay ignorant of differences and similarities because you won't give God a true chance. Why should he be any different than any other God and his religion different than any other? No other God became human and took pain, suffering, humiliation and physical death for your sins. No other God conquered sin and death for you. That's the most powerful reason there is and it should blow your mind. If you are still unphased, unconvinced and not moved, and still insist on reading and being influenced by atheist writings, there is probably no hope for you, ever.

This whole post gives me a sense of deja vu. This is because I've seen posters on other boards say the exact same thing, except that some of them substitute Jesus with Allah, Vishnu, etc. Christianity fails the uniqueness test on this.

Your criteria for arguing Christianity's truth are based on subjectivity and ad hoc minute explain-aways for non-results - there are so many variables that no one can prepare against all of them.



Because it's impossible to know what the necessary preparations *are*.

The Bible is full of so many unclear passages, bizarre examples of imagery, and disturbing moral codes that it would require years of study to deduce what God wants from us. Years which most of us don't have to spare, and years which I'd rather spend kicking it up with Slug Queens and cosplayers.

You have a seeming phobia and automatic-avoidance of critiques of Christianity by non-Christians. Many religions have this strange stigma attached to reading outsiders' perspectives, claiming that they are inherently unable to analyse the faith correctly. (It does not stop you, an outsider to Islam, from criticising and anaylsing that faith, when surely a Muslim would say preemptively that your statements about Islam are not to be trusted.) Some religion doctrines, which strongly discourage their members from reading outsiders' views on the faith, even go so far as to declare it sinful to do so, and penalise members for reading these "gangrene" texts. I find this containment to reading one viewpoint to be intellectually stifling.


<>


Except that I have read posts on other boards making your same argument for various different deities, belying the idea Christianity that is somehow unique.



In other words, a spiritual experience is totally subjective, and a Jesus experience cannot be objectively differentiated from an Allah experience, a Vishnu experience, or a Perkunas experience.



A Muslim would say that Islam is the only religion God alias Allah is close to, etc., etc., and that there are Muslims all over the world. President-elect Trump agrees on the last part, which (understandably) gives him the willies.



I don't see how this claim can be proved. Healthy, wealthy Muslims attribute their success to Allah and the validity of Islam.


238
"if the church operates correctly and honestly" is something that rarely seems to have happened throughout history. See, e.g., Martin Luther's rant against Indulgences.



Prometheus had a really rotten time of it, and so did several other dead and resurrected gods, who were commonly worshipped openly i1c84n the Western world until Theodosius declared the Roman/Byzantine Empire to be for Christians only. After that, some of these cults existed secretly for a short time after. Jesus was just one of the guys until Theodosius declared him to be The Guy.



I'd rather be open to reading multiple viewpoints than reading just one group's party line. I've read a few Christian apologists (one book by Lee Strobel, several by CS Lewis, and much of the fiction of Tim LaHaye's team. Strobel's and Lewis' arguments have gaping holes, and I wonder whether they themselves were unaware of this, or were simply hoping their readers wouldn't notice. The LaHaye group's fiction is a guilty pleasure like a poorly-written adventurous b movie script, but its doctrine is pretty execrable and its God/Jesus is a premium bully. While Christians boast about their number of converts, they gloss over the numbers of ex-Christian atheists, or find some way to demonise and discredit these people.

---

This whole post gives me a sense of deja vu. This is because I've seen posters on other boards say the exact same thing, except that some of them substitute Jesus with Allah, Vishnu, etc. Christianity fails the uniqueness test on this.

---

Christianity is extremely unique in that no other god came to earth in human flesh and endured physical pain, humiliation, suffering and physical death for your sins. Allah, Vishnu, etc., did not. That was the supreme act of love for all mankind. That is the big difference. Stop blowing it off. I keep saying it and you don't acknowledge it, You'd rather foolishly reflect on all the perceived similarities and maintain them as facts in your stubborn mind.

---

Your criteria for arguing Christianity's truth are based on subjectivity and ad hoc minute explain-aways for non-results - there are so many variables that no one can prepare against all of them.

---

Only the chronically stubborn and hard-hearted. Only the ones who would probably actually accept nothing less than God revealing himself to the world and saying, "I am the Lord God. Watch me perform great miracles now. Now believe me that my own word the bible is true." -except then, you would say you imagined or dreamed all of it, or that there is some other "logical" explanation.

---

Because it's impossible to know what the necessary preparations *are*.

---

I've told you and told you what they are throughout this thread. You have zero excuse. It's all right from God's very own word. No one has any excuse.

---

The Bible is full of so many unclear passages, bizarre examples of imagery, and disturbing moral codes

---

Only as full as the sea is of giraffes. Come up with as many unappealing things to call the Bible's contents as you want, but you would be dead wrong. Don't just take it from this 30+ year Bible studier. Take it from Dwight "D.L." Moody, Beth Moore, Franklin Graham, etc.

---

that it would require years of study to deduce what God wants from us. Years which most of us don't have to spare, and years which I'd rather spend kicking it up with Slug Queens and cosplayers.

---

That all just comes in time after you accept Christ as your Lord and Savior, joining his fold. He will cause you to "rather spend" some amount of your time pursuing his truth. No one gets it all before they take this step and they are not expected to or required to. It's not needed. You learn as you go, and it causes you to grow stronger and more assured in the faith as you go.

---

You have a seeming phobia and automatic-avoidance of critiques of Christianity by non-Christians.

---

I don't know how you could come to that conclusion. I read critiques all the time and I am experienced enough to identify how worthless they really are.

---

Many religions have this strange stigma attached to reading outsiders' perspectives, claiming that they are inherently unable to analyse the faith correctly.

---

Outsiders of Christianity cannot analyze the faith correctly. The other faiths can be analyzed correctly as worthless because we have the God's assuring guidance and the Bible to go by.

---

(It does not stop you, an outsider to Islam, from criticising and anaylsing that faith, when surely a Muslim would say preemptively that your statements about Islam are not to be trusted.)

---

They can say whatever they want. God has exposed them to those who are open to his truth. The criticism is not mine, but God's- who knows.

---

Some religion doctrines, which strongly discourage their members from reading outsiders' views on the faith, even go so far as to declare it sinful to do so, and penalise members for reading these "gangrene" texts. I find this containment to reading one viewpoint to be intellectually stifling.

---

I agree. But here is the thing. Christians must wait until they have gone far enough and are mature enough in their faith that nothing can change their hearts or minds. God takes them to that point himself if they allow him. Other peopl have little to nothing to do with it.

---

<>


Except that I have read posts on other boards making your same argument for various different deities, belying the idea Christianity that is somehow unique.

---

No different deities came to earth in human flesh and endured physical pain, humiliation, suffering and physical death for your sins. Do you not understand that? All for YOU, he was beaten, mocked, flogged (with sharp pieces of metal on whipping strings), having a crown of thorns stuck on his head, made to carry his own heavy execution mount in a state of physical weakness from the previous mentioned things, getting stripped to his underwear and nailed to the mount through his wrists and feet and left their to die in agony by probable suffocation- all for YOU because he loves you. He provides everything to put clothes on your ba16d0ck, food in your stomach, shelter over your head and people in your life that you have loved and who have loved you as well.

But you just blow him off and blow off his word, the Bible, after all that, just because you won't get over your own perceived similarities to other religions and that fact that you think anyone can counter anything Christians say. How could you? You don't know the anguish that you and people like you cause God when you influence others away from him and when you yourself become lost to him for all eternity. He loves YOU so much and you are depriving him of you and others who are influenced wrongly by your offline and online words against him and the Bible. Aren't you even the least bit ashamed? I sure would be. Wow. But there is still time for you to come to him before you are lost to him forever. Don't screw this up and stop giving God a virtual middle finger. Come to him. His arms are open wide for you.

---

In other words, a spiritual experience is totally subjective, and a Jesus experience cannot be objectively differentiated from an Allah experience, a Vishnu experience, or a Perkunas experience.

---

No, in other words, other religious people's words of their faith cannot stand up to the awesome power, love and salvation that God offers. There is no subjectiveness. There is only one way, one truth- Jesus Christ. So many people know and have known that and there is no denying it to us. He himself makes the differences and knows them better than anyone else, and if you don't accept that, you are taking all the wonderful things he has done for you and throwing them back in his face. Aren't you the least bit ashamed of yourself? No remorse? No sorrow for your actions against God who knows and loves YOU more than your own people in your life ever did?

---

A Muslim would say that Islam is the only religion God alias Allah is close to, etc., etc., and that there are Muslims all over the world.

---

There are also Christians all over the world. If you think we are concentrated all together in one country or area of the world, you really haven't done your homework. Muslims have no leg to stand on in saying that their religion is the only one God is close to. Jesus didn't suffer and die so people could blow him off to become Muslim. God didn't provide all those things for them that I said he provided you just so they could run off to a one-dimensional God who was created by some prophet with his own ideas.

---

President-elect Trump agrees on the last part, which (understandably) gives him the willies.

---

How do you know what gives him the willies? Whatever might, I think he will stand strong and work toward vanquishing the radical terrorist Muslims. The worldwide Christian to Muslim statistics would probably surprise you. Both religions are growing in followers every day.

---

-
I don't see how this claim can be proved.

---

Because you are sitting firmly and stubbornly on the outside, waiting to be satisfied like you believe everything revolves around you and that God and his people must "dance" for you. You can wait until doomsday for that. He is waiting to forgive you for everything though, and accept you with open arms. Come to him.

---

Healthy, wealthy Muslims attribute their success to Allah and the validity of Islam.

---

They aren't spiritually healthy. They are spiritually dead, as are you, and their attributions are meaningless because they come from those who are spiritually dead. But God can raise you to spiritual life if you are ready.

---

"if the church operates correctly and honestly" is something that rarely seems to have happened throughout history. See, e.g., Martin Luther's rant against Indulgences.

---

There are millions of trustworthy churches out there, I am proud to say. We just have to separate the wheat from the chaff as the Bible says.

---

Prometheus had a really rotten time of it, and so did several other dead and resurrected gods, who were commonly worshipped openly in the Western world until Theodosius declared the Roman/Byzantine Empire to be for Christians only. After that, some of these cults existed secretly for a short time after. Jesus was just one of the guys until Theodosius declared him to be The Guy.

---

Do you by chance watch Roman Reigns on TV? Just wondering.

Prometheus is not of a trinity, one of which came to earth and died for humans out of love for them. Neither are any others. Humans can declare anything they want, any time they want, and other humans cans give other humans credit for starting things all they want, But Jesus declared his own self to be The Guy. He needed no one else to do it just so the credit would go to them for it in anyone's mind. The credit goes to Jesus and him alone for declaring himself, no matter what any human ever wrote to the contrary. Everyone after him who preached for him just spread the word.

---

I'd rather be open to reading multiple viewpoints than reading just one group's party line.

---

You can do both. I always truthfully say I have considered other views2000 but I'm waiting for someone to prove the Bible wrong. The Bible and God himself works to prove the others wrong to those who are specially open to the proof, but no one has or could prove the Bible wrong. On that, I'm waiting to be proven wrong, but the Bible itself keeps shooting down all the so-called proof.

---

I've read a few Christian apologists (one book by Lee Strobel, several by CS Lewis, and much of the fiction of Tim LaHaye's team. Strobel's and Lewis' arguments have gaping holes, and I wonder whether they themselves were unaware of this, or were simply hoping their readers wouldn't notice.

---

Instead of using mere human logic to pick up on gaping holes, one only needs to line up the writings to God's logic- the Bible. No human writing tops it all worthwhile human writing exalts it from their first word to their last.

---

The LaHaye group's fiction is a guilty pleasure like a poorly-written adventurous b movie script, but its doctrine is pretty execrable and its God/Jesus is a premium bully.

---

I've never read LaHaye, but I can tell you that many atheists have accused God in the old testament as a premium bully. I'd bet they look down in Jesus for driving the merchants out of his own temple or calling other religious leaders of that day hypocrites, sons of vipers, etc. People today might be down on him for saying that marriage is to be between one man and one woman. It's all about flawed human reasoning used to judge who they weren't even there to witness in person just because they adopted a false understanding. So I can't take any of your words about the LaHey writings to heart.

---

While Christians boast about their number of converts, they gloss over the numbers of ex-Christian atheists, or find some way to demonise and discredit these people.

---

What should they do? Throw them a party? There is acknowledgement of ex-Christian atheists, and not by demonizing, but by making them out to be the sad cases that they are. Either Christians have failed them, they failed themselves or both every case. Very sad any way you look at it. They should not be discredited, but their potentially swaying words should just not be listened to. Who would want to be swayed to believe something that could lead them to ruin? We just need to pray that God would work to set them (back?) on the right path and help us to help them get (back?) on it.

We in the faith see that there are those who just say they are ex-Christians who are now turned off by the faith, merely in order to attack the faith and lead people away from it. They are just scum who are up to no good. There may be no more effective way to attack the faith and lead people away from it then to lie and say, "I was a Christian once, but I soon found the people in the religion and their beliefs and their Bible to be so horrible that I left in disgust and never looked back". But really, they never were even close to becoming a Christian. They are just executing their plan of attack and hoping others get on the bandwagon because their is strength in numbers and they want the religion to die out.

Many of your assertions seem to be based on making assumptions about people's minds, which amount to creating straw men. It is common for aggressive theists to make wild claims like "God's truth is obvious to everyone. Atheists and different groups of theists choose to deny this as a result of rebellious nature." These people don't seem to understand that the other people really do believe that Atheism, Islam, or whatever, is the truth.

I've had internet theists tell me "God has communicated with you, but you have chosen not to listen," which I subjectively know is simply not true. Even if it were true, these people would have to have extremely powerful and stealthy surveillance cameras monitoring me to have any way of knowing this. I can't even begin to grasp the logic they're using.

---

Many of your assertions seem to be based on making assumptions about people's minds, which amount to creating straw men.

---

I never make assumptions about 1ebcpeople's minds. I am experienced in study and know whereof I speak.

---

It is common for aggressive theists to make wild claims like "God's truth is obvious to everyone.

---

Nothing wild about it. Scripture says to put it to the test in your own life and you will see how true and good God is.

---

Atheists and different groups of theists choose to deny this as a result of rebellious nature."

---

It's true, which you would see for yourself if you would or could correctly trace the rebellion back to its roots. The first deniers basically just decided, "I'm just going to go mu own way and worship who/how I want" without being concerned with a way to back up what they decided to believe. But mankind ran with that "go my own way" attitude and came to created elaborate alternate belief systems that they could spread to other people and get them hooked on it. Later in time, the concept of science was born and people developed different branches of it. Darwin only came up with Evolution in the 1800's, whereas medical science can be traced back to the third millennium B.C.. Islam came about hundreds of years before Evolution science. Buddhism developed thousands of years before that. But none of that or the people who started those things arrived even close to the dawn of mankind. God was there at that dawning. Therefore, he is the only true God and the other gods just came out of people's heads. In the earliest times, it was nothing but rebellion, but because of the alternate belief systems and the earth's population increase, it came to pass that many people never heard of God or his Scripture.

---

These people don't seem to understand that the other people really do believe that Atheism, Islam, or whatever, is the truth.

---

What we understand (correctly) is that people believe what suits them. How else would you explain the Heaven's Gate cult and their fate? Simply put, a crackpot led them to believe that if he and they committed suicide together, they would be sailing through the cosmos and it would be wonderful. What about the Jonestown mass suicide in which the leader interestingly committed suicide separately and differently from the rest? Or the Branch Davidians? Another thing we understand (correctly) is that all atheists really have an awareness of God. They just choose to deny him, no matter what anyone says the actual definition of "atheist" is.

---

I've had internet theists tell me "God has communicated with you, but you have chosen not to listen," which I subjectively know is simply not true.

---

You can't know it's not true. What is your proof that it isn't? Answer me that without asking, "What is your proof that it is" or "the burden of proof is on you". If you continue on believing this way until it's too late, you will not like your afterlife.

---

Even if it were true, these people would have to have extremely powerful and stealthy surveillance cameras monitoring me to have any way of knowing this. I can't even begin to grasp the logic they're using.

---

It's some of the things you say and the fact that we are using our expertise in Bible study and knowing how God works.