Casablanca : Rick' Crime and Why Wasn't He Safe in Paris?

When they were in Paris Elsa kept saying he wouldn't be safe once the Germans arrived.

Why was that? They really didn't have anything on him since his past was unknown.

Always the officiant, never the bride.
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It was said he ran guns (to Ethioia) and fought in the Spanish Civil War against Franco, a fascist with ties to Nazi Germany. Not sure if that would be enough for the Germans to toss him into a camp, but those are the only things mentioned that I can remember.

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Thank you for confirming that. Those were the things I heard too, but I thought maybe I missed something in innuendo or that there was more. Apparently it was enough, at least for the plot.

Always the officiant, never the bride.
http://www.WithThisKissITheeWed.com

Hiya, it's just an opinion as I don't have any firm facts about the way the SS behaved during the early part of the war, particularly in Morocco, and most of what I know about the SS is from a combo of docos and Hollywood movies, but: I would have thought that anti-fascist sentiment would have put Rick on the suspicious list, but actually fighting it in another country would put him at the top of the 'get something on him and grab him' list.

Being made and set early in the war means, I believe, that the SS weren't as 'bad' as they were later. If it were 1943-4, then I'd expect the SS to just walk in and arrest him. If he was in Berlin he probably would have already been netted in a round-up.

All the little devils are proud of Hell.

Yes, I think you're right. Thanks. :)

Always the officiant, never the bride.
http://www.WithThisKissITheeWed.com

Nice to meet like-minded people.

All the little devils are proud of Hell.

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Being made and set early in the war means, I believe, that the SS weren't as 'bad' as they were later.

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This is a good point. You notice that the film uses "concentration camp" literally as just a jail of some sort where undesirable people are sent away for awhile. The whole concept of Laszlo spending a year in a concentration camp before being released to walk around Morocco, looking for a transit visa, in the presence of Nazis is preposterous. But at the time this movie was made the Holocaust would have seemed preposterous to most of the people who saw it.

Yeah, there's as much allegory as fact in the presentation of the action in Casablanca. I think it's telling that Renault is being presented as a French scallywag, sex obsessed and just cashing in while keeping the status quo between the French and the German occupying forces. The Vicky French weren't so 'friendly', I believe. So, it must have been important to make them seem as just a bunch of big children that would come back to the good fight when they grew up and took responsibility for their actions.

All the little devils are proud of Hell.

Lazslo was not "released" from a concentration camp. He escaped. That's why he was hiding in a freight car on the outskirts of Paris.

But I agree that the movie uses the term concentration camp as a type of imprisonment. It was only later that it became apparent that most of them were death camps.

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Being made and set early in the war means, I believe, that the SS weren't as 'bad' as they were later. If it were 1943-4, then I'd expect the SS to just walk in and arrest him.

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In Casablanca, no they wouldn't.

In Paris, they would have even in 1940 (which is precisely why Rick needed to leave before the German troops entered the city).

The difference is which country they are actually in. As is mentioned a few times in the movie, Casablanca was in Unoccupied France under the Vichy government. Therefore, the Germans have no jurisdiction or authority to arrest anyone for anything there (which is also why they don't arrest Victor on sight). Paris, on the other hand, was in Occupied France, which essentially part of Germany from the French surrender in 1940 until its post-D-Day liberation. The German forces were the direct governing authority there.

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In Casablanca, no they wouldn't.

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It's difficult to say without getting someone involved in the argument who's studied the occupation of Morocco by the Vichy French in detail. I know that neither of us have because the first thing you should have said is that Allied Forces controlled Cassablanca in 1943-4. That would have stood out for someone who'd studied. I didn't notice it until I had a look around to get the facts on the occupation and the 'rules' that wartime SS units acted by.

I suspect that SS units in Casablanca would have behaved as they did elsewhere; under their rules of wartime occupation. As I've said I'm no modern history scholar, but I don't see Morocco as an African Switzerland. The Moroccans didn't seem to like the Germans much, but the Vicky French seem to have been quite determinedly pro-Nazi. The movie presents Victor as a major player, a man undoubtedly set against the German war effort. The fascist Vicky French had Victor on what was to the Germans their territory now. To let him go as if they were standing in Switzerland seems just too unlikely, given that it was 'total war' by that stage.

All the little devils are proud of Hell.

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under their rules of wartime occupation.

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But that's precisely the point. Even by their own terms, this was Unoccupied France.

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The movie presents Victor as a major player, a man undoubtedly set against the German war effort.

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And if he had been in publicly seen and recognized in German occupied territory, that would have made it *more* likely that he would be arrested immediately, not less.

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The fascist Vicky French had Victor on what was to the Germans their territory now.

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No, it wasn't. And the fact that current French government was relatively pro-German made it less likely that the Germans would unilaterally violate their sovereignty instead of making a request of the French officials.

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To let him go as if they were standing in Switzerland seems just too unlikely, given that it was 'total war' by that stage.

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The Vichy weren't going to do that either, and I never said that they would. Their original plan in the movie wasn't an unreasonable supposition: keep him essentially exiled in the North African desert away from the publication tools and free access to the Allies that he would have enjoyed in a truly neutral or pro-Allies country. Until they could find an excuse to arrest him under French / Vichy law, that is.

I think you're assuming more than reciting. Legal boundaries were in place in the Rhineland, and then Poland. The SS were not bothered by such things, and both of us need no more than our lay understanding to know that much. From the Night of the Long Knives onward, the SS were off the leash.

The biggest problem we have is that the events in Casablanca are so fictional as to not bare comparison to reality. We need a similar situation. There were various attempts to assassinate key players- Hitler, Churchill etc- when they were out of country. Churchill certainly feared being shot down over neutral territory when en route to summits.

But this is mainly conjecture, and saying 'No, ' and then giving an opinion is not a convincing argument for me. I suspect that we would both be surprised by a scholar's researched assertions.

Point being that there is little we can say to each other that will 'trump' the other, given our current understandings, so it's a 'two fleas arguing over a dog' situation. Neither of us is likely to concede as both of us know the other is no more than a lay historian, and that's being generous to ourselves.

All the little devils are proud of Hell.

When you say the Germans were not quite as bad yet you are correct. :) Although Hitler was saying antisemitic things when he was in high school and published Mein Kampf in the 20s, it was nothing like it was later. He took power in 1933, promising to be a force of unity and economic revitalization (make Germany number 1 againsound familiar?), and started building camps. But he used them for communists (his number one boogie men in public), and those who spoke out against him. Then, homosexuals, people with mental illnesses, then any genetic diease. Gradually, every few months, they piled on more measures to restrict freedom of speech, boycott Jewish businesses, take away businesses and jobs held by Jews, then rescind their citizenship, etc. Tried to send a shipload of Jews to other countries but no one would take themnot the U.SW. or Canada either. Horrifically, the ship returned to Germany with all the people.one ship and no one cared enough or feared what might happen It was not until 1938, that he told his generals of his Liebensborn planns to take over Europe (and the world) so Germans could populate these areas instead of less desirable races. Some were shocked even then but did not dare speak up. Even then, either people did not read Mein Kampf or shared the antisemitism, or just did not care.

Poland was invaded in 1939, triggering France and Britain to declare war, and there was clear genocide in Polish cities/ghettoes such as the Warsaw ghetto where people were relocated to all be overcrowded and deprived of any food, water, essentialsstarved to death and murdered by psychotic criminals recruited by the SS or military. Many around the world could still deny any threat to others. Hitler carefully put-out a disinformation campaign that Poles were attacking Germanysilly in retrospect as the Polish military was basically still on horseback! There were no press in the Warsaw ghetto. We only know because a tiny few survived or escaped. One man survived a big escape attempt at one of the Polish concentration camps. But he told the worldafter the war.

This was still 1939. Britain and France had declared war, but had no weapons compared to Germany. It had been the Depressionpeople were starving. After WWI's misery, governments did NOT spent their rare resources on weapons. Except for Germany of course. Hitler reinvested Germany's war debt in building her military instead of repaying American banks who had loaned them money at high interest rates. Things were about to explode.

Here's what happened next: May 10th, 1940, Germany begins to attack other European countries to the WestBelgium, France, Netherlands. By the end of May3 weeks laterthe Dunkirk evacuation was already underway! Britain and France were totally outnumbered, and the Netherlands then Belgium were defeated (they did not want the casualties of heavy bombing and surrendered.). By June 22, 1940, France was defeated and Hitler visited Paris on June 23d. May 10th, Germany attacks, and 6 weeks later, the British had had to fleelosing huge numbers of their tanks and other equipment (there is a British doc on Dunkirk with Benedict Cumberbatch that rocks tho you will cry) and the French were defeated. 6 weeks. No time to plan.

The Vichey ("vee shee") govt in France was run by France's greatest hero of WWI, Petain. He was later tried as a collaborator. Not that he engaged in atrocities, but there was such an active French resistance and the Vichey govt strengthened the Germans these loyal French were dying to fight daily. The Germans picked them up and put them in buildings in the basements and tortured them, then killed them, methodically. German soldiers would roll into towns, arrest anyone they did not trust or that the collaborators turned in, and they'd be tortured for in fo and hung from every streetlight, tree, whatev erthey actually would run out of places to hang them. Then the SS started to hire psychos to be in the SS that went into conquered towns and villages. They put men in to tihe biggest barn, women and children into the church and they'd set them on fire, shoot anyone who tried to escape. Whole town or towns dead, just like the military in vading Russia starting in spring of 1941 was doing.

You see, in January, 1941 the Wannsee Conference was held in Berlinlotsa videos on youtube. That's where they formulated the Final Solution. Assigned the officers responsible for killing all the Jews. Decided to use trains, camps, gasonly concern was the poor German military who had to do the job Reinhard Heydrich was put in charge of the Final Solution then in January, 1941. Heydrich is the ruthless monster who later ruled Czechoslovakia in the occupation there, and was assassinated by the Czech underground. So the Germans killed every man, woman and child in 2 villages in retribution. This was just May 29th thru June 6th, 1942. That is how fast the evil began to escalate!

1939, Germany inmvades Poland and begins exterminating all Jews there. Absolutely vile monstrous behavior but few knew. May 10, 1940, Germany attacks west in Europe and by the 1st week in June, 1940, Britain and the French forces that could (many valiantly died holding back the Germans getting enough time for most forces to get out, using any ship available) have evacuated or been taked prisoner by the Germans for the rest of the war. A free French govt headed by Charles de Gaulle is set up in Britain. By June 22, 1940, all of Western Europe, including France has been conquered. June 20, 1941, the Final Solution is German policy. Most of the concentration camps are turned into extermination camps and gas chambers become the policy, using carbon dioxide and xyclon B. One year after France is defeated, Germany turns east and attacks Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Russia, Ukrainebasically anything east. They kill everyone who appears to be a lesser race, all Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, sometimes everyone. They master the long ditches and piling bodies

So you see, in 1939, Germany begins in Poland and everyone can deny the horror. In 1940 it spreads and cannot be denied but it's war, and there is not yet an official policy of genocide. That is the timeframe of this movie.right as Ilsa and Victor escape, the Wansee conference is held and the camps become full-fledged death camps where people are not just starved or worked to death but methodically murdered. January, 1941.

And throughout 1941, as Germany perfects its genocidal policies, and tortures the citizens of the other countries it has defeated, and uses them as slave labor for its factories, methodically starving them according to a timetable Sorted upon arrival, women, children, elderly are sent to gas chambers and dead within 90 minutes. Men who can work and some young women are sent to barracks where they are stripped, everything taken from them for Germany, and they are shaved. Given those stiped uniform pajamas. And put to work, not fed, no sanitation, no healthcare, no heat, even in winter. Cholera and typhoid are rampant. Anticipated survival is 90 days and their replacements are brought in by trainperfectly on schedule, detailed recordsand it got much worse.

Which is why the movie was rushed by the studio! By the time of its release (Nov. 26, 1941 on the East coast), Pearl Harbor was just about to be attacked, Hitler was about to declare war on the U.S. and we were in the war. And we all started learning what was going on behind German lines. What PolesFrenchRussians had tried to tell us I just started studying this last year and it is fascinating and heartbreaking, horrific and inspiring. Sorry to write a book.

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Which is why the movie was rushed by the studio! By the time of its release (Nov. 26, 1941 on the East coast), Pearl Harbor was just about to be attacked, Hitler was about to declare war on the U.S. and we were in the war. And we all started learning what was going on behind German lines. What PolesFrenchRussians had tried to tell us I just started studying this last year and it is fascinating and heartbreaking, horrific and inspiring. Sorry to write a book.

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You were going fine until your last paragraph. The movie was released on November 26, 1942, not 1941. So Pearl Harbor had already happened and the US was in the war. The movie is set in December 1941. (If it's December 1941 in Casablanca, what time is it in NY?). Warners was eager to get the movie out take advantage of the Allied invasion of North Africa in November 1942, one target of which was Casablanca.

That would be plenty, he was wise to scoot.

Note: Franco was not a Fascist; he used them as part of his rebel alliance of Nationalists, which included not only Fascists (called 'Falangists' in Spain)but also Carlists, peasants, churchmen and reactionary military officers ( like him). The Loyalists who backed the government were a similar mixed bag.

i'd like to think he killed a man.
it's the romantic in me.