Beauty and the Beast : Do the Beast and Belle get married?

The issue of whether Belle is a princess hinges on whether the Beast is still a prince. And although we don't know for sure, I'm inclined to say yes. He was only 11 when he was enchanted, which means his father was probably pretty young too.

I'm just going with my gut feeling and say yes but we don't really see it but I do think they do get married in the movie

well when you consider that in the stained glass ending in the 1991 film that Belle has a tira on..so she probably had married the beast

Yes, in fact if you go by the original French novel the final chapter is called "Wedding Guests."

Goes without saying since she marries him the 1946 Jean Cocteau version for that matter.

Tony Iommi and Geezer Butler of Black Sabbath watch My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic

As much as I want to say yes, the film really doesn't show or even imply that they ever got married. And unfortunately, it's the first Disney movie to actually depict marriage as a bad thing, evidenced by the failed wedding scene and how marriage in that film was depicted as a woman's worst nightmare. Doesn't help either that Linda Woolverton helped write the film.

Ah, so? They don't show or even imply in dialogue a wedding ceremony, and unlike with Sleeping Beauty and/or Snow White, they don't even hint in the narration that they got married.

some people believe the dance we see at the ending is the wedding reception. Since a princess by marriage can't technically wear a tira/crown until AFTER her marriage. I mean do we really need to see a wedding? The stained glass shows that ..

Considering the last time we saw a wedding in the film was the one Belle ruined in a rather mean-spirited manner, yes, we're practically OWED a wedding scene between the two. Heck, The Little Mermaid showed the wedding between Ariel and Eric after the near-marriage between Eric and Vanessa/Ursula, why can't they do that with Belle and Adam?

Marrying Gaston would be a woman's worst nightmare, if she had any brains at all.

He's all testosterone and doesn't believe that a woman could say no to him.

Doesn't mean they shouldn't show a wedding between Belle and Adam, though.

Heck, technically, marrying Vanessa was Eric's worst nightmare, and she took away his brains beforehand. Didn't stop them from showing a wedding between Ariel and Eric in the ending.

And the problem was HOW they did the wedding scene, or more accurately, how Belle behaved. I have no problem with Belle refusing Gaston in itself, but I do have major issues when she refused him in a very jerkish manner, needlessly so in fact. There's a difference between self-defense, and throwing him into a mudpool and treating it as a joke, and Belle did the latter.

And besides, have you forgotten that Linda Woolverton was notoriously anti-male, to the extent that she treated any males in Maleficent as being monsters or just plain idiots, and even implied the same was the case in Beauty and the Beast? And the film seems to imply that marriage in itself was bad, not just her potentially marrying Gaston. Why not have her say she would like to marry a guy, but only if that man proves himself to be decent? That at least would imply she's not against marriage in itself rather than how the film framed it (and believe me, Gaston's not the only male in the village Belle could get).

Ok how would YOU respond in Belle's situation? I mean you're educated, loved stories..and one day when you're dad is away the 'town's hero' who thinks he knows YOUR dream..(being a "little wife".. Belle was only was a jerk because Gaston was one first..

If I were in Belle's shoes (hypothetically, anyways, I'm a straight male), I'd politely tell him to leave, and if he DOES try to get rough, THEN try to get him out of the house by force, and even then, I would try to avoid throwing him into the mud pool, and if anything if he does end up in the mudpool, I'd probably put my hand up in genuine shock, a bit similar to how Honoka behaved here, as a matter of fact: . Certainly, I would not have given a smirk and mockingly waved goodbye when sending him into a mud pool.

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Ok how would YOU respond in Belle's situation? I mean you're educated, loved stories..and one day when you're dad is away the 'town's hero' who thinks he knows YOUR dream..(being a "little wife".. Belle was only was a jerk because Gaston was one first..

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I'm pretty sure he's an elaborate troll. Notice how he keeps randomly bringing up Voltaire and how the French revolution "targeted Christians" and how well-read people like Belle would "fall for the Communist Manifesto" and are "unstable." He's like some obsessed little boy who brings up Ninja Turtles in every conversation. That's the best comparison I can make without calling him a hick.

You'd have to be trolling or an incredibly scary idiot who overly sympathizes with the likes of Gaston to think Belle was a Jerk in that scene. Also if he thinks the original Belle's a Jerk, don't show him Once Upon a Time, especially Belle in Season Six. I can't justify that. She's just horrible this season.

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You'd have to be trolling or an incredibly scary idiot who overly sympathizes with the likes of Gaston to think Belle was a Jerk in that scene. Also if he thinks the original Belle's a Jerk, don't show him Once Upon a Time, especially Belle in Season Six. I can't justify that. She's just horrible this season.

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I'm neither (In fact, I hate Gaston and also am very much aware that he deserved EVERYTHING coming to him. And quite frankly, I also thought he was a poorly written villain precisely because he came across as a massive idiot who only managed to get as far because the rest of the cast were even bigger idiots, like in the Gaston reprise where he practically gloated his evil plan in public and they cheered him on. Just because I criticized Belle for how she behaved in that scene doesn't mean I have any sympathy for Gaston at all. Actually, if anything, I don't object to Belle refusing Gaston. If anything, I'm glad she refused him. What I'm upset at is more HOW she refused him, not the fact that she refused him in itself.). I'm just one who notices the details. And believe me, Belle's actions in that scene do NOT match up with self-defense at all. For starters, a person who is forced to use force on someone out of self defense would not take any amusement in the fact that they hurt a person, while Belle pretty clearly did. I've even got the screencaps to prove it:

*http://www.caps.media/199/1-beauty-and-the-beast/full/beauty-and-the-beast-disneyscreencaps.com-1980.jpg
*http://www.caps.media/199/1-beauty-and-the-beast/full/beauty-and-the-beast-disneyscreencaps.com-1981.jpg

And here's a .GIF if you still don't believe me:

*http://68.media.tumblr.com/9e93cbbfb4514c6059c44d66d371c783/tumblr_ne4uw4c23E1tt2x1bo6_500.gif

All I can tell you is, that's definitely not the face of someone who just committed self-defense against an attacker. People forced into self-defense do NOT smirk and mockingly wave goodbye, which Belle pretty clearly did in those images and that .GIF. And her smirk and mock-wave also clearly suggests that his falling into a mudpool was no accident on her part.

And Belle's exaggerated movements while saying "Gaston I'm speechless! I really don't know what to say" in a sarcastic and slightly flirtatious tone indicates she was deliberately luring him to the door and far too in control of the situation.

Let me put it another way: During the planning process for this particular scene, they initially had Belle lock Gaston in a closet. They changed that because that made Belle look like a well, a female dog (their words, not mine). This scene was retained, even though her behavior there was EXACTLY the same overall as the scene they cut. Also, to invoke the original fairy tale, since I know you're a fan of that one, did Belle, in that fairy tale, EVER practice anything similar to her own sisters when THEY treated her wrong? Absolutely not!

Personally, I liked the broadway musical rendition of that scene FAR better. In that one, Belle just politely refuses Gaston, and does not throw him into a mudpool either.

A last note, no need to worry about Once Upon a Time, I wasn't really a fan of that show anyways, and mom and dad quit watching it by season 3 after it got too convoluted.

Seriously tho? lol. Gaston was a narcissistic vain jerk who went in, put his stank feet up on her table, 100% assumed she'd be overjoyed that she wanted to marry him, had already even set up a damn wedding outside (not sure she was aware that was there, though). She might have opened the door on purpose (after he was all up on her grill) but I'm not sure she really calculated the whole mud puddle thing. I mean, sure, he was humiliated, but that's what you get when you have the whole damn village there for a wedding with someone who has shown zero interest in you that assume will just marry you.

She wasn't trying to "lure him on" or any *beep* like that. He put her in an awkward spot. She was trying to let him down easyor actually, I think, maybe even more than that, she knew he was SO pathologically vain that the only kind of answer he might even possibly "accept" or comprehend was her saying "I'm flattered, but I just don't deserve you!" You know, she had to make it like she was not worthy of his amazingness. (And he was way too much of an egotistical idiot to even be able to pick up on her sarcasm, which I'm sure she knew). If she was like "You know Gaston, I just don't like you" who knows I mean we're over-analyzing it I think. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have taken that answer though, maybe he would have started smashing *beep* There was zero hint there to me of her leading him on. He 100% assumed (disregarding her entire person, thoughts, signals, anything) that she'd marry him and be excited to. He deserved the humble pie. Maybe she was throwing his massive ego in his face a little but how are you supposed to be mad at that lol. Why does he deserve this nice polite continued ass-kissing when he's acting completely presumptuous and rude?

And no offense, but as a straight male (you), you indeed might NOT understand what it'd feel like as a woman cornered, alone, in a room by some huge burly dude who clearly doesn't listen to reason or even listen at all.

Ps I just watched the scene and seriously, though, if you do watch her body language throughout the WHOLE thing, she is constantly backing away, almost intimidated, making sure to stand behind furniture, that kind of thing, every time he approaches/advances toward her. I mean there is some intimidation factor there. As an adult I do get that little shiver of "I'd want to get out of that room if I were her" I mean before going to the door she even throws the chair down in front of him to block him a little. No, they really weren't going for this pure self defense terrified of potential rape scene in a kids movie, and they kept the scene humorous and playful buuuut she definitely was doing whatever she could to put distance between the two of them, which he totally ignored and kept pushing into regardless. And that is uncomfortable for women, take my word for it lol

Problem is, her reaction to Gaston hitting the mud pool by smirking and making a mocking-wave goodbye gesture made clear that she if anything DID calculate for that (those screencaps and .GIF made that much VERY clear). If she truly didn't plan for it, she most likely would have behaved more like Honoka here:

And I don't deny that he deserved the blunt refusal. If anything, I think it's a good thing Belle DID refuse him. I only objected to HOW she refused him, which DID come across as a jerkish move no matter how you put it, and based on her reaction being her smirking and doing a mock-wave goodbye, it wasn't even self-defense (you want an actual reaction of what happens when you are forced to use self-defense, look at how Goku acted when he was forced to blow away Frieza after the latter "repaid" Goku saving him by trying to shoot him in the back in the video clip above). Let me put it another way in terms you might understand: Cinderella had to deal with Lady Tremaine, Drizella, and Anastasia for most of her life, and had been abused by them for most of her life since her dad died. She would have been perfectly justified in, say, opening the door and throwing them into a mud pool in front of a gathered crowd just as Belle did to Gaston, yet she never does ANYTHING of the sort, nor does she even attempt to do any similar actions against them. And for the record, Belle in both versions of the original fairy tale NEVER treated her own wicked sisters like that either.

As far as your last comment, I probably would. Just flip it around as how I'd feel if I was a man cornered, alone, in a room by some crazy woman who clearly doesn't listen to reason or even listen at all. Yes, even women can commit rape, it's not just men who do so.

I think you responded before my last edit, you can see now my added comment about her body language throughout the whole scene.

You're overanalyzing the mud pool and the wave. Lol. Yes she was happy to get his vain ass out of there. Why is that a bad thing. She waved as soon as he fell out. He wouldn't have even seen her to do it. I'm sure she was thinking "lol good BYE to your egotistical ass." Even LeFou later (in the scene with the asylum guy) was laughing at how she flat out rejected his narcissist self. No, she didn't feel guilty. Don't see a problem with that.

And Lord Jesus are we really getting to a women vs men rape scenario argument. But sorry, no, as a man, you don't understand this scenario the same was a woman would. You have the advantage of size, strength. Yes, women commit rape and abuse and molestation all the time too. Butugh it's not even worth it, I'm starting to feel like CountVlad with you. If we need to explain it to you, you clearly don't get it. I wouldn't want to be cornered by a whacky crazy women either, as a female. But it's not the same as being cornered by a big, strong, potentially rapey male (Unless you are smaller in size get hit on by big men cornering/following you all the time, regular basis type thing, etc., THEN you might actually get it, I'd take my words back.) Do you worry walking down the street that a woman might jump and rape or assault you, really? If you were to go to a bar and go home with a woman, or even just accept a ride from a woman, would you even thinking twice like "uh oh I wonder if I'll get raped/murdered". If you find yourself alone in an isolated area with a woman you don't know, are you going to feel uncomforable/nervous? if you go jogging in a park in the morning are you worried you might get attacked by a woman? cmon

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You're overanalyzing the mud pool and the wave. Lol. Yes she was happy to get his vain ass out of there. Why is that a bad thing. She waved as soon as he fell out. He wouldn't have even seen her to do it. I'm sure she was thinking "lol good BYE to your egotistical ass." Even LeFou later (in the scene with the asylum guy) was laughing at how she flat out rejected his narcissist self.

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Because it implies that him falling into a mudpool was EXACTLY what she wanted to happen. Again, if the mudpool thing was unplanned, she should express at least some shock, like Honoka or Woody in those videos I posted.

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And Lord Jesus are we really getting to a women vs men rape scenario argument. But sorry, no, as a man, you don't understand this scenario the same was a woman would. You have the advantage of size, strength. Yes, women commit rape and abuse and molestation all the time too. Butugh it's not even worth it, I'm starting to feel like CountVlad with you. If we need to explain it to you, you clearly don't get it. I wouldn't want to be cornered by a whacky crazy women either, as a female. But it's not the same as being cornered by a big, strong, potentially rapey male

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Actually, my overall frame is anything BUT big, or hulking. If anything, "lean" would probably be closer to my description. And while I do have some advantage of strength, I'm doubtful it's even close to the same degree as a body builder or a professional athlete. And another thing, women are also pretty flexible, and given the right training are pretty capable of pinning down men, so yes, they actually CAN be feared just as much as women fear men.

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Ps I just watched the scene and seriously, though, if you do watch her body language throughout the WHOLE thing, she is constantly backing away, almost intimidated, making sure to stand behind furniture, that kind of thing, every time he approaches/advances toward her. I mean there is some intimidation factor there. As an adult I do get that little shiver of "I'd want to get out of that room if I were her" I mean before going to the door she even throws the chair down in front of him to block him a little. No, they really weren't going for this pure self defense terrified of potential rape scene in a kids movie, and they kept the scene humorous and playful buuuut she definitely was doing whatever she could to put distance between the two of them, which he totally ignored and kept pushing into regardless. And that is uncomfortable for women, take my word for it lol

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Quite frankly regarding the bold, that's actually EXACTLY why the entire scene falls apart. When you try to play something as serious as that whimsically, it just doesn't have that same factor. One of the good things about The Little Mermaid is that, while it IS a kids movie, it also doesn't try to soften otherwise dark elements to a ridiculous degree just because of the age bracket. The shark scene, heck, even Ariel making that deal with Ursula and the scenes with the garden, actually felt genuinely terrifying, as did the final battle with Ursula (and BTW, her being impaled and electrocuted, F&J being obliterated on-screen, and even the whole zombie-weed garden Ursula had was definitely not exactly something you'd expect to be in a little kid's film. If kids could handle it, I don't see why kids won't handle that kind of scene. Heck, they already had Lumiere basically being a womanizer in the movie anyways, and his behavior was pretty obviously inappropriate for the age bracket [and arguably even worse since it's played positively].). They didn't play it at all whimsically. It would have been better if they actually did try to make it pretty clear that she was trying to do self-defense against Gaston in a pure terrified of potential rape type of scene.

Lol I'm lame bc I sit and always re-edit things I write 100x. About your frame stature, okay yes a big strong wrestling woman bodybuilder might be able to crack you if she wanted. But is it really a constant underlying concern you have to live with (like it is for me, as a female)? Here's what I wrote above: Unless you are smaller in size get hit on by big men cornering/following you all the time, regular basis type thing, etc., THEN you might actually get it, I'd take my words back. But do you worry walking down the street that a woman might jump and rape or assault you, really? If you were to go to a bar and go home with a woman, or even just accept a ride from a woman, would you even thinking twice like "uh oh I wonder if I'll get raped/murdered". If you find yourself alone in an isolated area with a woman you don't know, are you going to feel uncomforable/nervous? if you go jogging in a park in the morning are you worried you might get attacked by a woman? cmon


And okay, no, Belle wasn't being humble. She wasn't bothered he fell in the mudpool. #sorrynotsorry. Maybe that makes her more unlikable to you, obviously that's your own opinion, but, I think the reaction kinda fit his actions.

And if he's using his big strong burlyness to corner her and she needs to trick him to get over to the door so he'll gtfo (which he likely wouldn't have done on his own), no problem there either.

sidenote: how did the door close? rewatching it just now, he leaves it open and then later it's shut, shh

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Lol I'm lame bc I sit and always re-edit things I write 100x. About your frame stature, okay yes a big strong wrestling woman bodybuilder might be able to crack you if she wanted. But is it really a constant underlying concern you have to live with (like it is for me, as a female)? Here's what I wrote above: Unless you are smaller in size get hit on by big men cornering/following you all the time, regular basis type thing, etc., THEN you might actually get it, I'd take my words back.

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Once when I was a little kid, I was on the Soccer team, and there was a very big kid on the team. Even though my dad failed to get me to an older team due to so-called rules, that big kid was clearly older and got in. Anyways, during training for us blocking the ball, the kid proceeded to deliberately kick the ball right into my gut at a speed that left me unable to block or dodge, knocking the wind out of me. He actually enjoyed doing that to people smaller and weaker than himself, true scum, that guy. That convinced me to quit Soccer. So I already have some idea of what that's like. I just need to multiply that by, say, a hundred or even a million and imagine it to be constant for me to get a good idea of what that's like.

I'm not scared of women either, at least, not in the way you're implying, but I CAN understand what they go through myself, mostly due to flipping things around.

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And okay, no, Belle wasn't being humble. She wasn't bothered he fell in the mudpool. #sorrynotsorry. Maybe that makes her more unlikable to you, obviously that's your own opinion, but, I think the reaction kinda fit his actions.

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What makes her more unlikeable to me right now is actually the fact that she's explicitly being used as a vehicle for Linda Woolverton's radical feminist agenda (and Woolverton even admitted such was the case, so it's not even opinion that this is the case, but fact. Don't forget that she was responsible for the Maleficent movie that tried to make someone whose name literally meant pure evil and had the title of "Mistress of All Evil" into a good guy, and implied this was the culmination of her work in BATB. Even if we ignore politics, what's clear is that Woolverton's just as much of a chauvinist as Gaston was, arguably even worse of one.). And it actually makes me sad that I have to dislike her, since I looked up to her when I was a little kid. In fact, one of my most treasured toys as a child was a belle figurine. I think I still have it. If anything, the live action film is if anything rekindling my long buried trust for Belle.

And another reason I stopped liking her was stuff like this: http://beautybeast.enchanted-rose.org/library/displayimage.php?pid=13702&fullsize=1 and this: http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/disney/images/2/20/Tumblr_ng92xaGNbc1r2nlopo1_500.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20141210031917 Seriously, stuff like that makes Belle come across as just being a female version of Gaston in terms of outright bigotry, and that's NOT a good way to view Belle.

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And if he's using his big strong burlyness to corner her and she needs to trick him to get over to the door so he'll gtfo (which he likely wouldn't have done on his own), no problem there either.

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Doesn't mean she shouldn't have sent him sliding into a mud pool, or that she should do a mock-wave goodbye while smirking. Did Cinderella do anything like that to Drizella, Anastasia, or even her wicked stepmother?

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Once when I was a little kid, I was on the Soccer team, and there was a very big kid on the team. Even though my dad failed to get me to an older team due to so-called rules, that big kid was clearly older and got in. Anyways, during training for us blocking the ball, the kid proceeded to deliberately kick the ball right into my gut at a speed that left me unable to block or dodge, knocking the wind out of me. He actually enjoyed doing that to people smaller and weaker than himself, true scum, that guy. That convinced me to quit Soccer. So I already have some idea of what that's like. I just need to multiply that by, say, a hundred or even a million and imagine it to be constant for me to get a good idea of what that's like.

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Well thanks, at least I feel you are trying to understand. :) That is what it's like! And it sucks that guy ruined soccer for you, people can be jerks.

And okay, I will straight up admit ignoranceI'm not an expert on this movie or anything beyond just watching it multiple times. From this boards I gather Linda Woolverton wrote the first one. Did she write this one too? Or is she still currently pushing Belle as "radical feminist" icon or something? Or do you mean you're just mad watching it as an adult know that you now she had feminist ideas when she made it? (And I didn't see Maleficent because it already seemed annoying from the trailers)

I see Belle being sassy, but not anymore than the male characters in this film. Lumiere and Cogsworth talkin smack to each other, even LeFou sassin Gaston a little, etc. She doesn't stand out as some supery extra feminist agenda pushing character. She just stood up for herself with Gaston and didn't feel bad about it. she ain't no punching bag like LeFou. Still not sure I see the problem.

And Cinderellasure, Belle is not like her at all. But Cinderella was an abused doormat lol

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Well thanks, at least I feel you are trying to understand. :) That is what it's like! And it sucks that guy ruined soccer for you, people can be jerks.

And okay, I will straight up admit ignoranceI'm not an expert on this movie or anything beyond just watching it multiple times. From this boards I gather Linda Woolverton wrote the first one. Did she write this one too? Or is she still currently pushing Belle as "radical feminist" icon or something? Or do you mean you're just mad watching it as an adult know that you now she had feminist ideas when she made it? (And I didn't see Maleficent because it already seemed annoying from the trailers)

I see Belle being sassy, but not anymore than the male characters in this film. Lumiere and Cogsworth talkin smack to each other, even LeFou sassin Gaston a little, etc. She doesn't stand out as some supery extra feminist agenda pushing character. She just stood up for herself with Gaston and didn't feel bad about it. she ain't no punching bag like LeFou. Still not sure I see the problem.

And Cinderellasure, Belle is not like her at all. But Cinderella was an abused doormat lol

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Fortunately, Linda Woolverton does not have any role in the production of the remake, which is a good thing, because in the original film, she made Belle into a jerk for most of the first act (and it's not just how she behaved with Gaston during the "proposal scene" if you will). Her being brought in was a mistake, and yes, Woolverton DID make very clear that when she wrote Belle, she specifically modeled her after the 1960s-1970s feminism, and to some degree the 1990s feminism. To get a good idea of how she wrote the character, she cut out a scene of Belle making a cake simply because, in her view, a liberated woman like Belle wouldn't even know how to do that (yes, she actually said that). Here's some sources for that:
*

Besides, in the musical, Belle refuses Gaston WITHOUT throwing him into mud, and if anything, she refused him far more graciously.

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Cinderell's situation was entirely different-would you prefer Cinderella to be a Prostitute like Fantine from Les Mis?

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No, annedoe, I would NOT want Cinderella to turn out like a prostitute.

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No, annedoe, I would NOT want Cinderella to turn out like a prostitute.

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I edited my post when you're typing that

It's not like Cinderella could run away she could be accused of X and who would hire someone without "Character" (character reference that is)? Or on the off-chance she COULD get a job someplace else-she could get raped by any male member of the "family" or of the servants or their guests.



She did the best of a bad situation.

Belle's situation she has the right to be a jerk to the Gaston-let's just say he would have been better off felling in love with his reflection like Narcissus in Greek mythology

BTW because in the musical-both the characters are outside-and you can't real have a puddle on stage-the same effect couldn't work..

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I edited my post when you're typing that

It's not like Cinderella could run away she could be accused of X and who would hire someone without "Character" (character reference that is)? Or on the off-chance she COULD get a job someplace else-she could get raped by any male member of the "family" or of the servants or their guests.




She did the best of a bad situation.

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I don't know where you got the idea that I thought Cinderella should run away, because I NEVER implied that she should have done that. Actually, if anything, I agree that she really doesn't have any options on leaving the family, and running away would make things even worse for her. I never advocated for her to run away. And I was saying if anything that under the premise that Belle was right to shove Gaston into mud, Cinderella by that logic would have been justified in doing something similar to her stepsisters and Lady Tremaine, yet she didn't (and I never said or even implied she should run away afterward).

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Belle's situation she has the right to be a jerk to the Gaston-let's just say he would have been better off felling in love with his reflection like Narcissus in Greek mythology

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I do agree with you regarding Gaston being a narcissist and he had his actions coming, but Belle being a jerk to him didn't make her much better. By that logic, Cinderella could easily murder her stepsisters and stepmother and be perfectly justified for it, yet she doesn't. It's the same situation there.

Okay lol I'm trying to keep up

1) I saw you add that comic and little pin of Belle on the other post. the "men are beasts" thing is annoying (though I'm sure it's also a pun, cuz the whole beast thing)and the comic seemed heavy handed too. So yes I find those annoying as well. I just haven't mentally tied those into Belle in the Disney movie b/c that's really all I've seen. Or waitno, no, I did watch some of those awful sequals like the Christmas one where they just made fun of Cogsworth's weight the whole time (was there more than one? I could be getting them mixed up). Anyway bottom line, my opinion of Belle the Disney character is just going off the 1991 movie.

2) I will throw you a bone in that, I've had experiences where sometimes the deeper you dig into the author/writer/director/actor/etc of something you hold near and dear and uncover something that really pisses you off or ruins some of what you thought of them before, it does suck and taints some of the magic of thing you hold near and dear. I've had it happen lol.

3) Not trying to be recalcitrant but those articles haven't really convinced me she's some kind of uber fem-nazi or anything. Maybe the balance between her goals and the rest of the team made it so that the movie didn't come across as hitting you over the head with pro-women messages. It didn't to me. I took it for what it was. And sorry, I don't really see a problem with Linda avoiding stereotypes like having her baking and being the little 'angel in the house' etc. Againit was intentional on her part but in the final product, it didn't smack you upside the head. It's just subtly for once showing a female NOT doing those clichd things, and yes that can be a gradual process through media.

4) Maleficant, again. It looks stupid to me. I don't like when shows go too far from the original story. Like Maleficent was flat out diabolical in the original. While I love me a good dark/flawed/tormented/bad-yet-good characterchanging someone who was flat out evil into "nooo but she has her sorrow toojdakjfla" fanfiction type janx makes me want to avoid it already. That's my own personal thing though

5) Cinderella is more a saintly character than Belle. So yah, if you admire her more, cool.

6) The clip. Okay I'm watching only that clip you sent me and first I'm like "lol it's Hector from Breaking Bad!" and then I'm likethat Jerome seemed like he probably had a ticking sociopath in him already for him to turn so quickly even within that scene. That's another whole debate. I think some turn bad from abuse but some might have that propensity in them anyway which gets sparked by abuse, some have that propensity not sparked by abuse yadayada. But again you've probably seen the whole thing so it could have played out differently

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1) I saw you add that comic and little pin of Belle on the other post. the "men are beasts" thing is annoying (though I'm sure it's also a pun, cuz the whole beast thing)and the comic seemed heavy handed too. So yes I find those annoying as well. I just haven't mentally tied those into Belle in the Disney movie b/c that's really all I've seen. Or waitno, no, I did watch some of those awful sequals like the Christmas one where they just made fun of Cogsworth's weight the whole time (was there more than one? I could be getting them mixed up). Anyway bottom line, my opinion of Belle the Disney character is just going off the 1991 movie.

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I don't recall any fat jokes in The Enchanted Christmas (on a side note, I thought Forte was a far better done villain than Gaston was. At least Forte didn't literally sing his evil plan in public as soon as he came up with it), I think you might be thinking of Belle's Magical World.

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2) I will throw you a bone in that, I've had experiences where sometimes the deeper you dig into the author/writer/director/actor/etc of something you hold near and dear and uncover something that really pisses you off or ruins some of what you thought of them before, it does suck and taints some of the magic of thing you hold near and dear. I've had it happen lol.

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Yeah, and what made that even WORSE is that I learned this after having gone through quite a bad time in College (not in terms of grades mind you, but the fact that the teachers thought their position meant they should cram left-wing politics down our throats even when they had absolutely no relevance to the subject matter at hand). In fact, here's the first instance of that chain: https://www.mediafire.com/#e02pmeur6q4yb And it's not merely the mocking of either my religion or my gender that got me angry with that, but the fact that the professor there brazenly lied about women's educational status (namely, she heavily implied that women couldn't get educated at all until the 1960s), all to push an agenda.

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3) Not trying to be recalcitrant but those articles haven't really convinced me she's some kind of uber fem-nazi or anything. Maybe the balance between her goals and the rest of the team made it so that the movie didn't come across as hitting you over the head with pro-women messages. It didn't to me. I took it for what it was. And sorry, I don't really see a problem with Linda avoiding stereotypes like having her baking and being the little 'angel in the house' etc. Againit was intentional on her part but in the final product, it didn't smack you upside the head. It's just subtly for once showing a female NOT doing those clichd things, and yes that can be a gradual process through media.

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It still seems kinda stupid to claim Belle shouldn't know how to bake due to being a "liberated woman" when, well, she'd need to know how to cook or bake just to survive living by herself.

Besides, I get irritated when Linda Woolverton basically bashed Belle's predecessors by repeatedly inferring that until Belle came along, they were all weak, insipid, and only waited for their prince to come, not to mention only had marriage and love as their goals (sure, maybe Aurora and Snow White did only wait for their prince to come, but I can forgive them since, really, they didn't even have a choice in the matter due to their being placed into a coma by the villains, but Cinderella and Ariel most certainly didn't simply wait for their princes to come, nor, for that matter, were they in any way weak or insipid. Heck, Cinderella and Ariel didn't even PLAN on meeting their princes from the start. The former only wanted to go to a ball, and she didn't even intend to meet the prince that time, and the latter already intended to become human well before she even knew Prince Eric existed, let alone met him face to face, and even AFTERWARDS, she didn't initially plan on marrying him immediately, just meeting him, and initially she didn't even plan on becoming human to meet him based on her plan formulation before Sebastian interrupted her with Under the Sea. It wasn't until King Triton basically threw that tantrum that she even considered going to Ursula, not to mention actually BECOME human. And as far as only having love and marriage as their goals, only Aurora actually fit that description, as Cinderella and even Snow White had as their goal escaping from their evil stepfamilies, and in the case of Ariel, her goal was quite explicitly to live among humans, which predated her meeting Eric.).

Also, while I don't object to Belle not wanting to marry Gaston (if anything, I sympathize with her for not wanting to marry him), my problem is the way they handled it indicated she DOESN'T want to marry at all. It's not like there aren't any other male villagers to court her. Based on the Mob Song, there are at least 50 men in the village besides Gaston who could propose to her. It just comes across as her hating marriage, period. Maybe if they had her explicitly stating that she is not against getting married in itself, but just doesn't want to marry Gaston, I'd be a bit more forgiving. I'd also wish that Belle actually told off Lumiere for his womanizing, since quite frankly, I find Lumiere's womanizing to be far worse than Gaston did in the first half of the film, largely because I do believe in monogamous marriage.

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4) Maleficant, again. It looks stupid to me. I don't like when shows go too far from the original story. Like Maleficent was flat out diabolical in the original. While I love me a good dark/flawed/tormented/bad-yet-good characterchanging someone who was flat out evil into "nooo but she has her sorrow toojdakjfla" fanfiction type janx makes me want to avoid it already. That's my own personal thing though

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Oh, don't worry, I fully agree with that. I may have as a kid envisioned the possibility of Jafar being redeemed, but I NEVER envisioned Maleficent as being the type to be redeemed or even a good person. And the fact that Linda Woolverton practically bragged that she already had everything set in place starting with Beauty and the Beast as a vehicle for pushing radical feminism in that Time Magazine article, to the extent that she flat out admitted that it pushed the very same themes, also gets me pretty angry.

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5) Cinderella is more a saintly character than Belle. So yah, if you admire her more, cool.

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Yeah, I have to agree, I do admire her. That being said, as cool as Cinderella is, Ariel's still my number 1 Disney Princess, grew up with her, and I connected to her because like Ariel, I had to struggle to get to where I am today due to my having Aspergers syndrome. Heck, a long time ago, I used to hold Belle in high regard, though even back then, she was second best, both in terms of the princesses and in terms of the cast (I had more regard for Beast back then TBH, for pretty much the same reason as why Ariel was number 1).

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6) The clip. Okay I'm watching only that clip you sent me and first I'm like "lol it's Hector from Breaking Bad!" and then I'm likethat Jerome seemed like he probably had a ticking sociopath in him already for him to turn so quickly even within that scene. That's another whole debate. I think some turn bad from abuse but some might have that propensity in them anyway which gets sparked by abuse, some have that propensity not sparked by abuse yadayada. But again you've probably seen the whole thing so it could have played out differently

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Well, in a later episode, specifically where Jerome kills his dad, it is heavily implied that Jerome had in fact been abused since he was at least nine, definitely well before then, and that his dad (before he knew he was his dad) basically told him he's going to be forgotten anyways, so yeah, he definitely had turned bad from abuse, though considering this guy is heavily implied to become the Joker later on, he could easily be making it up. Anyways, my point was if Cinderella did not have that strength of character, she could easily turn out like Jerome.

I didn't forget to respond to this.

No, you know, I'm pretty sure it was the Christmas one I watched. Maybe it wasn't endless fat jokes, but there were at least 2-3enough that it stood out. I vaguely recall Lumiere making a joke when they were sleddingI watched it literally once. It was enough for me to realize the lazy writing to have those many cheap shots in there versus the first movie. While Cogsworth and Lumiere picked at each other the whole time, it wasn't all about Cogsworth being fat lol. I mean what, he says that one thing "flabby flat and lazy, you walked in and oopsie daisy!" so there was a slight weight insinuation there between lumiere and cogsworth (since he poked him) but Lumiere was really referring to all of them just slothing around. Anyway it's not that important, it just (evidently) did stand out to me.

I was hesitant to click on what you sent because it I don't know what it was. An uploading site? But yes, some professors do try to push ideas on students. I feel like the better ones don'tyou know, the better ones are more open minded. It wasn't consistent (at least not where I went). I remember having one teacherwe watched La Belle et La Bete in her class hahashe always had an obvious one track right answer, thing she wants to hearmy sister and I would joke we just have to guess exactly what she wants us to say, and say that, to get an A, and somehow we always managed. Haha. But then others were more open minded. Like, I'm a moderate independent type, I used to lean more conservative, now (not trying to sound elitist but, after living abroad) I lean more liberal but am still in the middleANYway in college I was more conservative and there was one editoral writing class, the teacher would always bring in political cartoons that were obviously making fun of the republican side, and I just one time was like "why is it always one sided?" and thankfully he actually did care/respect thatafter that he started bringing in cartoons making fun of both sides because he didn't want to seem unfair. So you win some, you lose some. (Hindsight I think that last teacher might have had a secret 'thing' for me so maybe that helped my cause but hey)

And okay, while women do bake and it might not seem like a big deal to you, for the longest time women ARE associated with being "in the kitchen" with their aprons and all that stuff. People still joke with the "make me a sandwich!" crap all the time. So.honestly yeah. I mean unless it is a movie about chefs, how many times DO you see a male baking, cooking, in the kitchen, etc. But you would see it with females all the time. It was just a break from gender stereotypes, I think. I mean that's all. To me that does not seem offensive. For groups that you know, might have had a lesser voice or rights or representation once upon a time (like women)those small subtle steps do actually matter.

Maybe Linda Woolverton is aokay. Lol lots of words/thoughts to try to respond to. I didn't see Ariel as just a stupid ditzshe was more just like a teenage girl. I mean , teenage girls are interested in boys, likewise, teenage males are interested in girls. So there you go. that wasn't that deep. And she did have other ambitions like you said, like being human, being in a different world. I think the older Disney movies did have more of the stereotypical female roles though. So yeah maybe you don't like Linda hatin' on the other ones, but, I don't know. It was a whole team that did Beauty and the Beast so hopefully you can still enjoy it for what it is and not let all their opinions pollute it too much.

As far as the Belle and marriage thing. I mean it's possible. More than the proposal scene, it's more her running out to the field and wanting "so much more than they've got planned" that could support your point more than how she acted with Gaston. Gaston was a bullying tool asswipe that NEEDED his ass knocked down 100000 pegs. I saw someone else say they don't like Belle since she seemed to look down on the villagers and their simple lives. Lol if anything I can see that more than it just being an anti-male thing. She just seemed anti-the boring, mundane typical route. Which would be marrying into that town, getting stuck there forever, washing clothes, havin' babies blah blah. She just wanted more, she wanted adventure, exploring, life, drama. I can understand that myself actually. But not bc I hate men lol. (Well one thing is for sure I don't want kids of my own, maybe one day I'd be willing to adopt though. And no, sorry, I wouldn't want my whole life just to be a homemaker stay-at-home mom, even though some women very much do want that. But again, not because I hate men. If they want to ride along on the adventure with me, fine haha. Except that I'm like this 99%-of-the-time hermit) So it's a combo of things I think. Her personality is just to want more. And she still ended up with a man in the end, becoming his princess, so there lol. It's not like she went off and invented the rocket and flew into space

Admittedly I didn't read ALL the articles you posted. The one I saw about Maleficent was more that, she thinks that back in the day a "complicated woman" as the lead character was unlikely. but now, with less gender stereotyped women like belle and *beep* paving the way (does seem a little self-congratulatory), betches like Maleficant can exist. Eh? But hopefully she's not implying that the two characters are actually alike

That's interesting about Ariel and aspegers. Wait suddenly I remember someone saying that on another thread, that must have been you lol! Unless a huge coincidence. I'm not sure if I ever deeply connected to a Disney character to be honest. Cogsworth was my favorite character in B&B haha, but you know, I can be kind of high strung. It's not that deep though. I am usually drawn to outcasts, but ones that are not as easily sympathizable as the Beast or Quasimodo (does that make sense)like, they have to have more of an edge or unlikabilty or bad side too. But, "people" told me many times I was mean growing p when I felt deep down I was good so I'm sure all that crap contributes to why we like what we like.

And yes definitely Jerome seemed to be the Joker with his creepy grinning and such. And okay, the abuse. You know there is a spectrum thoughsomeone like Henry LEe Lucas was abused like all get out vs. someone like Dahmer who might have just had a bigger creeper-chord in him anyway that only need a little triggering. I still think people who go full bad/sociopath probably had some of it in them anyway, more than others. Because plenty of people with severe abuse don't turn out that way. ANYWAY. It's just a spectrum I think, a spectrum of nature and nurture and the interplay and impact for everyone varies

Say, think you can send me your email? This is a neat discussion we're having, and I wish to continue it even if IMDb stops using message boards. Mine's otness_e@mindspring.com.

Belle was not a jerk. And frankly I LIKE her writing. She did an excellent job with the movie and play.

Frankly your reasons for viewing Belle as a "jerk" are fking scary. You need to re-evalute how you interpret things because the more you try to justify this view the more of a pro-rapist, pro-dominating and intimidating woman creep you seem. You don't even remotely sound like a decent human being when you say it. This is why I keep hoping you are a troll because it's just plain monstrous. I think you need some serious soul searching that you sympathize with Gaston while he was literally tying to block Belle's path with his arms during a 'wedding proposal." It's actually literally sick (as in signs of mental illness) that you sympathize with THAT and think she was in the wrong.

What. is. the. matter. with. you!?? It's not human! This "logic" requires a certain degree if literal evil to think of her as a jerk in those scenes.

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Frankly your reasons for viewing Belle as a "jerk" are fking scary. You need to re-evalute how you interpret things because the more you try to justify this view the more of a pro-rapist, pro-dominating and intimidating woman creep you seem. You don't even remotely sound like a decent human being when you say it. This is why I keep hoping you are a troll because it's just plain monstrous. I think you need some serious soul searching that you sympathize with Gaston while he was literally tying to block Belle's path with his arms during a 'wedding proposal." It's actually literally sick (as in signs of mental illness) that you sympathize with THAT and think she was in the wrong.

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Actually, I consider BOTH parties in the wrong, both Gaston AND Belle. I made it pretty clear, MULTIPLE times, I should add, that I don't sympathize with Gaston at all. Actually, I might as well admit something: Back when I was younger, I actually WANTED to see Gaston die, see his broken body, got irritated that I never saw the body and thus am forced to contend with the possibility that he was alive. And I used to sympathize with Belle when I was younger, like you. I actually thought she was a pure angel. Heck, one of my most treasured toys was a Belle figure in her ballroom gown, with movable arms and all of that. But then I got older, I noticed several problems posed by her character, some of her actions that actually came across as being rather I don't know, nasty, and having to endure professors who try to cram radical leftism down my throat, including outright lying about women's educational status or so-called lack thereof prior to the 1960s, AND studying history and how so-called "intellectuals" stabbed us in the back, never helped. If anything, it just made things worse. Gaston most certainly deserved being thrown into the mud, but Belle wasn't much better in her behavior. She pretty clearly lured him to the door while acting sarcastic all the while, and then when she threw Gaston out, she treated the entire thing like a joke. I may have trouble readily identifying emotions due to aspergers, but I can recognize them via facial expressions, and her smirking and mock-waving goodbye (something blackandyellowsquid verified as well) is NOT how most people who just escaped being raped would react. Actually, they'd have PTSD and most certainly would not treat it like they heard a funny joke. And in case you didn't notice, Woolverton treated Lumiere, a man who is a shameless flirt and one who probably would cheat on multiple women without remorse (which was even stated in Human Again), as a decent guy. Me personally, I view such guys like Lumiere as total scum, leagues worse than Gaston can EVER be, which is saying a lot considering I've made it repeatedly clear how Gaston's a monster, especially when he threatened to lock Maurice up as blackmail.

And you want to know what actually IS sick?! It's that several people, including Linda Woolverton (since she outright admitted that she specifically modeled Belle after the 1960s and 1970s wave of Feminism), are actually worshipping as one of the founding mothers of Feminism what amounts to a pedophilic misogynistic French rapist who also was involved in who is considered as the closest thing to an actual loved one, Jean-Paul Sartre, with fresh meat for him to philander, leaving a whole lot of broken women, and even men, in their midst, and even voiced support for the likes of Stalin and Mao, both of whom made even the likes of Adolf Hitler seem like a saint (and that's no praising for a monster like Hitler, it just goes to show how much WORSE Stalin and Mao were). They glorify that woman as the patron saint of feminism, even when she was in reality a cold-hearted monster who advocated slaughtering people, including the unborn, who is practically one of the reasons why Feminism is such a disgusting ideology right now. I'm talking about Simone de Beauvoir, who has a LOT to answer for, her and Betty Friedan. You hated the scene in the novelization where a headmaster told Belle women aren't allowed to read? You can blame Betty Friedan and Simone de Beauvoir for why that stupid and sick idea is even prevalent. Heck, how about we take it a bit further: Marx and Engels pushed that lie a long time ago. And for the record, Simone de Beauvoir and Betty Friedan also tried to FORCE women to not be able to choose housewifery, even admitting most women would want that as a career. I don't know about you, but I consider being a housewife to be better than being a disposable concubine like what Beauvoir had in mind for empowering women (and yes, that's exactly what she had in mind. She thinks a woman is only empowered when her virginity is robbed by her boyfriend Sartre, who promptly throws them away afterwards). Oh, and the feminist groups such as NOW? They actually defend Bill Clinton, who actually HAD raped women, multiple times, and even goes as far as to discredit him via his "friends", even when they claim that they defend women. And you call me evil?

And I consider Linda Woolverton scum, especially when she sympathized with a creature who in her original film made extremely clear that she prided herself as essentially being Satan, Mistress of All Evil, and was completely irredeemable, and made ALL the men in that film either complete scumbags or otherwise just morons, meaning she was essentially no different from what she claimed she hated about Gaston. And when she denounced any and all DPs prior to Belle as being weak and insipid creatures who had only love and marriage as their goals, which is a bald faced lie even when you look at the surface, let alone look deeply into it (for starters, Ariel and Cinderella didn't even intend to meet their prince, all they wanted was to live among humanity and go to a ball, and even Snow White just wanted to escape from her stepfamily, with only Aurora coming CLOSE to actually only wanting love and marriage as their goal), she crossed a line.

Cinderell's situation was entirely different-would you prefer Cinderella to be a Prostitute like Fantine from Les Mis? It's not like Cinderella could run away she could be accused of X and who would hire someone without "Character". Or on the off-chance she COULD get a job someplace else-she could get raped by any male member of the "family" or of the servants or their guests.



BTW that "waving" you're referring too-she's actually PUTTING GASTON'S BOOTS OUTSIDE that he took on INSIDE HER house.

this is where he takes off the boots:
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/K7rgjkqEKyQ/hqdefault.jpg


http://imgur.com/SR70hgY

Are you kidding me? Those scenes were Belle actually waving, not reaching for his boots (the hand was clearly exposing her palm vertically and moving back and forth). Not to mention the boots were well beyond arm's reach (still on that table) and behind Belle not to mention. No, it's obvious that she's waving, NOT grabbing his boots to put them outside. In fact, the boots are still on the table by that time.

um maybe you should re-watch it again-she's not reaching for his boots JUST THE OPPOSITE..she's moving his boots OUTSIDE. Did you MISS the part in Gaston's prospal where he TAKE OFF HIS BOOTS on BELLE's BOOK? How do you think he got his boots back again if Belle didn't place them OUTSIDE for his Majesty?

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um maybe you should re-watch it again-she's not reaching for his boots JUST THE OPPOSITE..she's moving his boots OUTSIDE. Did you MISS the part in Gaston's prospal where he TAKE OFF HIS BOOTS on BELLE's BOOK? How do you think he got his boots back again if Belle didn't place them OUTSIDE for his Majesty?

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Precisely. Gaston kicked off his muddy boots, his socks stinky (wavy lines and all) in front of her face) talking about his "little wife" messaging his feet.

I'm getting a serious Misogyny vibe that our "friend" here wanted to sympathize with Gaston so bad he re-imagined the scene differently in his head.

I think he hopes if he keeps saying "Belle's a jerk" over and over again it will somehow rewrite the scene to suit his narrative but it's just making HIM come off as fking creepy.

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I'm getting a serious Misogyny vibe that our "friend" here wanted to sympathize with Gaston so bad he re-imagined the scene differently in his head.

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I didn't "reimagine the scene", I recalled all the details. If I wanted to reimagine the scene, I'd actually HAVE it play out like some horror movie specifically to get it right, and not have it play whimsically.

Also, I don't sympathize with Gaston, nor do I even WANT to sympathize with Gaston either (this was a guy who tried to lock up a guy who he knew full well was not a threat to society just to force Belle to marry him, that kind of person doesn't deserve my sympathy). He's scum, he definitely had everything coming to him (I don't think he's a misogynist, though, mostly because misogynists generally want to avoid having ANYTHING to do with women. He's at worst a male chauvinist. A real misogynist would behave more like General Blue did to Bulma here: , well, either him or how Chi-Fu generally acted around women. I may hate Gaston, but I'd rather be accurate about how he is vile.). Why do people insist that I must sympathize with someone if I criticize someone else who places that someone in that place? I even made clear that I have no objections to Belle refusing Gaston and in fact cited that if anything, I liked the version from the musical better. Maybe I should link you to the actual version I'm referring to: http://disney.wikia.com/wiki/Me_(song) Actually, if anything, the only person of the three I sympathize with at all was the Beast. I never liked Gaston even as a kid, let alone as an adult. Actually, I might as well add, her actions towards Gaston in the film were not even the biggest issue I have with Belle right now. They're actually the most minor thing I have about her. My issues with Belle, from the film alone, are the following (and note, this is not even counting the part regarding the ruined wedding scene):

1. Her opening song having her constantly decrying the village as being full of "little people" and denouncing it for being the provincial life, thus indicating she was basically being an utter snob (not to mention a hypocrite since she decried Gaston as being rude and conceited despite her actually ACTING rude and conceited in the opening song when she constantly hammers how she wants out of the provincial life and specifically cited it being provincial as being the reason for her not liking the village). What's even worse about that scene is that they utterly failed to even explain WHY Belle and Maurice didn't just up and out move out of the village if they hated it so much, which meant Belle came across as a big whiner as well [her predecessors at least had some reason for why they can't actually leave the bad situation they were in: Snow White and Cinderella were under the legal custody of their evil step-parents, so they literally were unable to do anything, and in the case of the former, the only time she was even able to flee was when the Evil Queen tried to murder her, Aurora didn't even KNOW that she was cursed, and wasn't even aware she was a princess until her birthday, and Ariel, aside from obvious biological factors preventing her from actually interacting with the human world, also had to do with a, while ultimately well-meaning for his daughter, also a profoundly xenophobic and borderline genocidal father who utterly hated humans. Belle had absolutely NO reason not to leave the village. Thankfully, the remake fixed that bit];

2. Her tantrum to Beast regarding refusing to come down to dinner, and, more importantly, still acting bratty even AFTER Beast at least MADE an attempt to be polite to Belle (even if it was at the servants' prodding). I could understand Belle refusing to dine with him after what happened regarding Maurice, but on the other hand, Beast DID attempt to be polite to Belle, which meant it would only have been fair if she at least tried to come down to dinner with him;

3. Her breaking into the West Wing without the Beast or the servants' permission, deliberately doing so I should add, and with absolutely no sympathetic reasonings behind it, and then after the mess that happened afterwards proceeded to not only still blame Beast for it, but actually WIN the blame game, and not make ANY attempt at accepting responsibility for her actions despite the fact that, while both were guilty for various things in that event, Belle was a LOT more guilty than Beast in that event in terms of actions (Beast's only guilty action was losing control of his temper enough to smash furniture. Beyond that, Beast's reaction if anything was perfectly justified considering what she did there, which involved breaking and entering, deliberately disobeying one of his rules, and nearly destroying his lifeline [though to be fair, she didn't know it was his lifeline.].). Heck, I'm not even saying Beast should WIN the blame game, either, even if he is more qualified for winning that, just that they BOTH acknowledge they screwed up royally (think how Homer and Grampa when reconciling with each other acknowledged they were "both screw ups" in one episode of The Simpsons, or even how Ash, when explaining that Venusaur was not right to force his Bulbasaur to evolve, also acknowledged that he himself was not right in intruding the Bulbasaur evolution ceremony);

4. While she does get a LOT better by the second act, there was still one element in there that still leaves me quite infuriated with her. It was the blackmail scene, largely because of just how much of a massive IDIOT she was in that scene. So, let me get this straight, her dad's being put into a paddywagon, and after explicitly deducing that Gaston was the reason her dad's being arrested, all so he could force her hand in marriage, she ends up deciding to expose the Beast to the villagers, even though she knows full well the villagers are NOT the type to listen to reason, or at least SHOULD know full well that's the case, and after she learned what Gaston was capable of when she deduced he tried to blackmail her, it wouldn't even be a stretch to assume that he'd be the type to commit murder to get what he wants, and THEN she acts all surprised when they do EXACTLY what should have been obvious to her in the first place?! And considering Belle had enough strength to lift Beast and Maurice up without any apparent help, I don't see why she couldn't just I don't know, knock Gaston out with a good whack to the head, steal a torch, and set the paddywagon on fire without being seen, and then make off with Maurice, Chip, and the magic mirror to ensure no one tails her. As far as how Gaston would fight the Beast, maybe have him do tracking to get to the Castle. If he's as good of a hunter as he claims, he can track Phillipe all the way to the castle. Yes, it might sound the same as what I decried of what she did to Gaston in the scene, but here's the difference: In the case of this scenario, she's actually TRYING to help someone who isn't herself.

And I actually hate misogyny by a significant degree, and have zero respect for those who have it, so I do not appreciate it when people imply that I'm a misogynist. And BTW, let me ask you a logic question: You said you're female, right? Well, if I were truly a misogynist, do you REALLY think I would even interact with you at ALL knowing that? Absolutely not. Actually, if anything, I'd also

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I think he hopes if he keeps saying "Belle's a jerk" over and over again it will somehow rewrite the scene to suit his narrative but it's just making HIM come off as fking creepy.

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Again, not pushing a narrative, and I most certainly do not intend to paint Gaston as sympathetic.

he means before the boots, literally the moment after Gaston falls out the door she does a little wave

Thanks, I was getting tired of having to explain it to them, despite literally posting a .GIF and two screencaps showing EXACTLY what I was referring to.

I did watch the scene, or at least look at the screencaps, and the boots were on the table and still required a bit of walking to get to them based on the animation. The hand was facing opposite of the table anyways, so no, it was obviously a wave. And it took a good few minutes to throw the boots out of the door before slamming it, where we see the band playing during that time. I remember that scene quite well, and the scene where she's waving in that .GIF was NOT her getting the boots. That was AFTER that .GIF.

um she NEVER did a f- wave you fool!! She IMMEDIATLIEY threw the boots out after his majesty.. you're dreaming if you think it's a wave.

Even blacknyellowsquid verified that that WAS in fact a wave, are you going to claim she's dreaming as well?

you're both dreaming or were brainwashed-she never ever did a wave in the movie-and I been watching the movie since I was child..and for me-it alwasy was putting his Majesty's boots out after he disgustley took them off..

Maybe you should rewatch it, because the .GIF I posted (not to mention those two screencaps) definitely demonstrated a wave and smirk literally a second after Belle opened the door and Gaston tripped, then it cuts to the band playing outside, with Gaston shortly afterwards having landed face first in the mud pool, and THEN it shows Belle (offscreen) grabbing the boots, throwing them outside at the doorstep, and then quickly slamming the door. I'll even post the screencaps in order if you wish.

Here's the part where Belle opens the door and Gaston trips, right up to her waving:

*http://www.caps.media/199/1-beauty-and-the-beast/full/beauty-and-the-beast-disneyscreencaps.com-1978.jpg
*http://www.caps.media/199/1-beauty-and-the-beast/full/beauty-and-the-beast-disneyscreencaps.com-1979.jpg
*http://www.caps.media/199/1-beauty-and-the-beast/full/beauty-and-the-beast-disneyscreencaps.com-1980.jpg
*http://www.caps.media/199/1-beauty-and-the-beast/full/beauty-and-the-beast-disneyscreencaps.com-1981.jpg

Here's the band playing prematurely, and Gaston in the mudpool:

*http://www.caps.media/199/1-beauty-and-the-beast/full/beauty-and-the-beast-disneyscreencaps.com-1982.jpg
*http://www.caps.media/199/1-beauty-and-the-beast/full/beauty-and-the-beast-disneyscreencaps.com-1983.jpg
*http://www.caps.media/199/1-beauty-and-the-beast/full/beauty-and-the-beast-disneyscreencaps.com-1984.jpg
*http://www.caps.media/199/1-beauty-and-the-beast/full/beauty-and-the-beast-disneyscreencaps.com-1985.jpg
*http://www.caps.media/199/1-beauty-and-the-beast/full/beauty-and-the-beast-disneyscreencaps.com-1986.jpg
*http://www.caps.media/199/1-beauty-and-the-beast/full/beauty-and-the-beast-disneyscreencaps.com-1987.jpg
*http://www.caps.media/199/1-beauty-and-the-beast/full/beauty-and-the-beast-disneyscreencaps.com-1988.jpg
*http://www.caps.media/199/1-beauty-and-the-beast/full/beauty-and-the-beast-disneyscreencaps.com-1989.jpg

And, FINALLY, HERE'S the part you referenced where she was getting the boots:

*http://www.caps.media/199/1-beauty-and-the-beast/full/beauty-and-the-beast-disneyscreencaps.com-1990.jpg
*http://www.caps.media/199/1-beauty-and-the-beast/full/beauty-and-the-beast-disneyscreencaps.com-1991.jpg

And just in case you think I've just swapped the numbers around in the links, here's the source for those images:

*https://disneyscreencaps.com/beauty-and-the-beast-1991/11/ (images 1978-1980)
*https://disneyscreencaps.com/beauty-and-the-beast-1991/12/ (images 1981-1991)

Now do you realize she was not actually reaching for the boots, at the risk of sounding rude? I seriously can't believe even after the .GIF that you still think she was reaching for boots and denying that she was smirking and waving despite it being very obvious that she did that, and despite not only explaining WHY she wasn't reaching for boots during that scene, but even showing the .GIF and images proving she wasn't. Word to the wise: if she were actually reaching for his boots, her hand/arm would be going DOWN, not pointing straight up in a right angle.

We're not talking about when she puts the boots out the door. All you have to do is go to youtube and rewatch it, like I did. Again, it's literally as he falls out the door.



Right at 1:45

EDIT: Sorry, never mind, I thought you were annedoe and/or replying to me. My apologies for the outburst, it was uncalled for.

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Quite frankly regarding the bold, that's actually EXACTLY why the entire scene falls apart. When you try to play something as serious as that whimsically, it just doesn't have that same factor.

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I think they were trying for a Lonny Tunes Peppie le Pew style moment.

And again, that just doesn't work for something that would imply rape. Look, if you're not going to cover something like near rape in a kids movie due to it not being appropriate, don't cover it. If you are going to cover it, try to frame it in an appropriately bad light instead of treating it as humorous or whimsical (because rape is NEVER funny at all. Rape in fact is such a serious event that TVTropes even has a trope called "Rape is a special kind of evil" and for a very good reason.). Did they, I don't know, make Ariel's deal with Ursula or Ursula's garden seem like Looney Tunes, for example? That was a very dark event, and guess what? They depicted that dark element VERY appropriately.

pepe le pew is lowkey rapey though :P

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pepe le pew is lowkey rapey though :P

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I never said he wasn't. But there was a time when people were more okay with that kind of humor so long as the girl was clever or agile enough to escape his advances.

I suppose he thinks the cat in those cartoons is a "jerk" too